April 27, 2022

Writing love songs with Katy Oberle

Writing love songs with Katy Oberle
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I know just enough about music to be dangerous (and write rock star romances!). So I am super excited to branch out on the podcast with singer-songwriter Katy Oberle. Katy also worked as a couples therapist before transitioning to creative mindfulness coaching so she knows a thing or twelve about intimacy. This is a fascinating conversation about the neurological functions of love and sex and how they are not all that different from how our bodies respond to things like music and romance books. Plus we discuss the lyrics from her beautiful love song Ghost Town.


Connect with Katy online: 






Elle 0:01
Katy Oberle is a Columbus Ohio based folk pop singer, songwriter, singer songwriter, y'all know an author a singer songwriter, Katie who identifies as an extroverted Empath and highly sensitive person has always been fascinated by relationships. See what I'm doing here you guys get miss. Her professional path led her to become a couples therapist, which in turn has influenced her musical journey. In 2002. She released shine and album of 14 original love song Oh, not love songs, just songs about love, loss, hope and connection. See where my brain is today?

Katy 0:35
And that was actually 2020 Sorry if that was a typo. And hello, did

Elle 0:38
I know you had it? Right? What did I say? I think you said 2000 202 1002. Oh, you know, oh my God. You know what? I have been in the Time Machine. Alright, all week I posted on Instagram. This is what I'm gonna finish. Oh, no, I

Katy 0:50
saw that. You're like coming out in January 2020. January 2020, for the love.

Elle 0:59
Like I invented a time machine any other year. So in 2020, she really shine and Alba 14 original songs about love loss, hope and connection. In September 2021. Katie released Walden, the first single offer upcoming EP driftwood. Walden is a beautiful song, by the way, which is scheduled for release in 2022. Katie, I'm so happy you're here. Welcome to Steam Scenes.

Katy 1:28
Thanks so much, Elle, it's so amazing to be here. And yes. For your listeners, they might be like, Oh, what is happening, but you and I talked and we are in the same, like kind of like coaching group, and you're in my little small group. And so we've just, which is sort of like an accountability group. So we just keep ourselves, you know, on on task and support each other. And like you and I were the only ones on one of those calls a couple of weeks ago. And so we just talked for like an hour. And we're like, wait a second, we have so much to talk about. And it's just fun to talk to each other. And just yeah, there is so much crossover from just like, being a lyricist. And you being an author and us just sort of like finding. Yeah, and me being a couple of therapists and you writing about love and romance and all that. So

Elle 2:16
yeah, it just seemed to work, even though it's sort of like, we like it. Like, it's weird, because I only talk like, usually it's romance authors, but like, this just really worked. And honestly, I've been thinking about how to expand out this podcast anyway, to talk to more than just romance authors, because I think like, it's really interesting, like, you know, other areas of intimacy that I think we can all learn from, for sure. And, yeah, yeah. Although, you know, for me, it's sort of like writing is kind of that first part. And, you know, it's the thing that I do, and I understand or, like, you know, the novel writing or as you write, but it's just a little bit of a different sort of writing, which will absolutely, you know, be getting into. And I just want to add, like our mastermind, it's really funny, it's for musicians, this sort of like mastermind coaching group we're in it's for musicians, I'm the sole like, non musician, group. And I so appreciate that you guys put up with me going? I have no idea. But it sounds really good.

Katy 3:13
And it's all sort of like, I mean, we're all artists and creatives. And, and so there is so much crossover. And the coolest thing is that you write these like your rockstar romance series, like there's so much music elements in the stuff that you're writing right now, which is so fascinating. So hopefully, it's like the symbiotic relationship is like you're getting inspired by some of the musicians and like, we're getting inspired by by you and like, like your journey, so it's just been really cool.

Elle 3:43
It has been it's been really wild. And yeah, because of the rock star sort of angle of things. I was like, I guess I kind of it's okay, like, I kind of belong here. You know?

Katy 3:53
You've been very supportive to me, and I've learned a lot from you.

Elle 3:56
I know just enough about music to be dangerous. Like so. So Katie, I'm curious when when did you realize you wanted to become a musician?

Katy 4:10
I think I've always like dreamed about that. I mean, I have always I was far too rational and type a to like have gone for it so to speak, and like have that become the, the way that my career went. And so I but I always knew that I had this love for music and not just listening to it, but just wanting to create it and just from I mean, probably late elementary school, like I just was starting to write like lyrics and then once I gave up piano because I was horrible edit and switch to guitar, which I'm not good at either, but at least I can do better at that. And it's, you know, more mobile. I was able to start a company myself. of learning these different chord patterns and finding that I could put, you know, the lyrics and the melodies that I had in my head to start sort of start forming songs. And it served a really therapeutic purpose in my life too. So it was sort of just this like, thing that I felt compelled to do. And I just was raised on. I feel like I'm an old soul. Like I was raised on the movie musicals of like the 40s 50s like the MGM stuff, in the rain, you know, all like good news, all those classics. And I just have just have loved how music has been able to tell stories and move the plot along, right or just become such a part of these characters love story, and like how they express their love for each other is through like, bursting into song. So I'm a musical theater nerd. So it's just it's not weird to me at all that you know, like, well, it's a beautiful day for falling in love. And let's not think about it right. And other people just don't get that at all. And that's okay. But that is my bread and butter. And so yeah, there was a time where I thought, well, maybe like, I'll go the musical theater route. I've done some community musical theater stuff, but I knew like, I'm, you know, I am not Idina Menzel level here, like, we're not probably going to do I would be like, you know, chorus girl number 1400. If I went to audition for stuff in New York, it just, I just wasn't going to put myself through that. I think my, my skin wasn't thick enough to do that. And, yeah, it still isn't. It's, you know, it's rough out there. But like, I found ways to continue to have it in my life, like I said, just on a smaller scale, you know, in local productions, and then also just continuing to write music. And, and I sort of kept tucking that away and bringing it out in different forms, like in, in high school, and my senior thesis was an album of original songs in college, I wrote another album, I just have always felt like I have them in me. And so I think it just took me a while to have the kind of the bandwidth logistically emotionally, you know, just life stage to write and, and record more, because I, you know, we had a growing family, and my kids now are eight and 11. And they're just old enough that I can sneak off more and do the things that like, are in addition to the money making things, responsibilities I do and really, like, follow this passion a bit more. So yeah, so even identifying myself as a musician has been a journey. And I really am trying to do that more and more, because I'm not like a, like, I'm not great with music theory. I'm not a great guitarist at the same time. Like, I don't have to be that all and do that all. And I can still identify as a as a musician, as a singer, songwriter. So I'm trying to embrace that more.

Elle 7:57
Yeah, so funny. It's like that imposter syndrome thing, right? Because like, we all get it, especially if we haven't been formally trained, right? Like my formal training, through college was sort of like theater where I developed my own major as a playwright at the school that I went to. And then I moved on to grad school. And I did something completely academic, but it was still tied to performance. You know, but then I went into like, doing, like, my day job was doing entertainment, publicity and entertainment, PR, and writing and journalism and that whole thing, but I never really took a formal novel writing class, necessarily, you know, I'm sort of hanging my way around, you know, in relying on instinct readings, and, you know, craft books, obviously. But it definitely brings out this like that imposter syndrome. And I know, people who have studied, whatever it is that they're doing. I also feel that too, like, I don't know, I don't know why our brains are sort of telling us that we're not this thing when we're doing the thing. And it is so clear that we are

Katy 9:01
right, right. And I mean, I just think women feel that way more. I mean, I really do. I think research even shows that just like women get that impostor syndrome thing happening more, because we don't fit well. And I think also that reminds me of like studies that have shown that like, women won't apply for a job that they don't think they're like 100% qualified for because it feels like oh, well, I'm an imposter. Like, if I you know, if I apply for that job, if I don't have all those qualifications, that men don't as often have that same train of thought they think, Oh, wow, I've most of these qualifications, I'll just go for it. So I think that's also something you know, unfortunately, maybe a byproduct of our culture and just the way that we're sort of like, you know, gendered and what types of things women feel like they can do or can't do. So yeah, I think as I get older, I'm trying to like really look that in the face that imposter syndrome thing and and really, like, work that through because I don't want to feel that that way anymore. It sucks a lot of life energy.

Elle 10:02
It really does. Like it really doesn't. I will say like, you are a singer songwriter like that is exactly you have albums out you do the thing, you know? Your record you play, you know, like, yeah, no, you're you're this. You're you are a singer songwriter. Now.

Katy 10:19
Likewise, validation for you. We are. Yeah, that's really

Elle 10:28
I want to like sort of backtrack a little bit to something you said about, you know, musicals, which I was like, Oh, yeah. Yeah. That the characters express their love by breaking into song, right. And I guess they express their heart, their heartache, they express their anger by breaking it like that, right? But what is it about song that makes that because they're the big emotions that they're expressing through music? So what is it about music? That sort of lets allows these big emotions or embraces I should say these big emotions? Like, why does it work? Yeah,

Katy 11:02
that's a question I've been thinking about. Well, I've been thinking a lot about that, as I've from more of a therapeutic perspective, and more of like, a neuro chemistry perspective, too, right? Because I mean, I'm not a neuroscientist at all, but in the sense of like, what, just enough to be dangerous, like, let me cut your scholarship. But in the sense of like, attachment, and like emotions, and what I deal with, as a couples therapist, like, love is this, like, organic, limbic system thing that happens in our brain, and in music taps into the same brain regions. Love does, you know, there's dopamine, there's oxytocin, there's, like, all these things that happen. And there's something about how music affects our brain that, like, allows all of those emotions to be able to crystallize in a way that like the the expression of that is, is so powerful. So yeah, and I think that also, there's been research to show that like, That's why if you can integrate music or like mnemonic devices or things like that into studying, like, you can retain information better and all these things like music is really powerful. Yeah, so there's, there's, there's something about just the I think the emotional strings that it pulls on, that takes it from the level of talking to just this like, it's just this other worldly leveled up experience.

Elle 12:46
Wow. I'm sort of curious. I mean, they probably don't even know yet. Like, what is it? The rhythm? Is it notes? Is it you know what I mean? Like, what what does release the dopamine response? Right? They have any idea?

Katy 12:59
I'm sure they do. I don't

Elle 13:03
they the big day.

Katy 13:06
I want to say like Oliver Sacks? Is that sound right? Like he said, I think maybe you're a scientist who has think that he has a book called like music philia or something, although that sounds like a dirty term. But I'd love to return. Right? Well, yeah. But it's something about how he took like that, more of a brain based approach to understanding music and like what it does, like our brains on music, so to speak, right. And similarly, our brains on love are our brains on lust, it's like they're doing similar things. Oh, tell me about a brain on loss. I mean, that like people in the first stages of romantic attachment have been found to have an increased amount of oxytocin in their system that lasts for about like six months. So this is sort of that like falling in love period, right. And then sexual activity also stimulates that release. And it oxytocin Then its effect actually contributes to this sort of like relaxed trusting stable state and when and when also when you're attracted to somebody that's again the dopamine is also released. That's like the feel good chemical serotonin increases and if you've taken an SSRI ever, like if you've been depressed, you want more serotonin happening. And so that's all related to like oxytocin to is related to bonding. So even in the maternal sense, again, with attachment like that idea of moms with higher oxytocin tend to have more affectionate parenting behaviors. So it's really about this, like, you know, it's these survival instincts right around like, if you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint, like, how did these How does it serve us? Well to fall in love well, it helps us feel bonded and then helps us feel bonded to our infants. So We're, you know, we're we're wanting to procreate because we feel lustful, and then we procreate. But like, I mean, of course, as a couples therapist, as a human, I'm aware that, you know, people aren't having sex just to procreate like, this is the amazing part of being a human is that, you know, love and lust and sex and expression or like, all these ways that we can connect with each other really deeply. And music is also this great connector. So it's just like, then this is why when we think of what songs are about, and what the greatest songs in, you know, that we've ever heard are about, they're about love. They're about, it's like, that's why, you know, they're not about like computers, or like, I don't know, other random things. Like, they're about this really, really powerful force that we

Elle 15:48
have. Right. Right. Right. And protest songs.

Katy 15:52
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that moves are Yeah, that we also feel very passionate about and moves our emotional selves to try to, to kind of be compelled to do something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. To act.

Elle 16:07
Now, this is making me wonder, because I mean, I'm sure there are definitive studies out there, I just haven't found them. Like, you know, hearing a song will release certain you know, these certain amazing chemicals that we all want, right, the dopamine and all of that, sort of wondering if reading a love story, reading a romance book, reading a steamy scene. And and watching these two characters that you're invested in Connect, would have would would have the same release? I imagine it would, because you know, so many people do love read live, they love reading romance,

Katy 16:40
right? Oh, I absolutely think it would. I mean, I can, if I'm reading like a really good romance novel, like, my body is responding to that. Feeling it I'm, you know, I may be feeling in my heart, but I'm maybe feeling that butterfly feeling I'm feeling Yes, I did feeling, feeling it down there. Like, I'm feeling it, right. And so if it's, you know, because it's, it's in that zone of like, it just hits us in that certain way that this is like, Wow, all about attachment and connection. And it's really powerful stuff, like to read something on a page, and have your body respond to that, that's powerful.

Elle 17:18
Do you get that way, when you write your songs,

Katy 17:22
I definitely feel that sense that that sort of force that comes from beyond me, and, or from through me, or something, like sometimes the like, the songwriting process is very mysterious. For me at least, like, there are just times where I feel a melody, float through the air, and I almost like catch it, and I, you know, have my phone with me, like, all of us probably do more than we should, but like, I'll take, you know, go to voice memos. And I'll just record that 20 seconds of that melody, or sometimes it's just 10 seconds. And sometimes it's like, like, I don't have words yet. But most of the time, it's like a, like a phrase and a melody together, or, like, the start of a lyric or a line, almost, like if you would grab your journal and like, write down a line. Ooh, that's a good line for my character to say, like, it's sort of that same thing where it's like, sometimes that happens, you know, in the shower, as I'm driving, or as I'm walking around, or, and I can't in so then I tried to just like, you know, get it get it down if I can. And because some, it's like, ooh, something happens. Like, it's, it's Yeah, it is this sort of, like, intangible feeling of like, Ooh, yeah, there's something energetic that shifted, and this thing came into my field of awareness. And it was powerful, I felt something. And this is why, like, for me, like, lyrics are really, really important. But then to be able to add melody to that. And like, that is such a pet so cool to it. So that's the difference between reading song lyrics on a page and hearing the song. You know, it's so interesting, though, as an author like to just like, there's reading some books that don't make you feel much and there's reading really good books that really make you feel so I don't know, there is the spectrum of kind of ways that it hits me. And yeah, songwriting is, like I said, is unpredictable. It's not something that I can sit down and just it's a practice that I just like writing I'm sure I've heard a lot of authors talk about, like they just, they make themselves you know, from whatever time do whatever time every day or every other day, like just write to get something down, get a number of words down. So I think the same can be said right of songwriting. It's like can I just sit down and just like Do whatever comes up, just fiddle around on my guitar, play some notes, strum some chords, hum a little and just see what happens. And like, maybe I'll be luckier, the more times I do that. Right. Right, the idea of just sort of like I'm more in the, in the zone. But I also don't like to push it. So I'm not always the most consistent around a songwriting practice. Oh, yeah.

Elle 20:27
I was curious. I was kind of curious. Like, what that sort of like, I don't know, you know, practical process, right. Because, yeah, I mean, if I sat around, if I if I wasn't hung around waiting for the muse to strike, like, I would never write a word. You know, so I do. It's like acid seat 7am. And I am scheduled for this long, you know, and this is what I'm gonna, and this is what I'm going to work on. And, you know, and there are some there are, I mean, there are authors that are way better than me, I have a friend, Isabella Jo Lee, if anybody wants to know, she was on the podcast, who has a spreadsheet, and she has her word count for the day, like she has a daily word count, she has a spreadsheet, and she sticks with it. And, you know, and she was way more prolific than I am, because she really sort of tackles her writing career from like, a project manager standpoint. Yeah. You know, and so I was kind of curious. You know, I kind of fall I guess, in between the waiting for the muse to strike and the project manager, I'm like, you know, I'm kind of like, probably dead in the middle. So I was kind of wondering where it was for you. Yeah, I

Katy 21:27
think that's a great question. And for me, what just came up, as you're asking is, I was relating to sort of how much of my day job songwriting is. And for me, right now, it's like zero. I mean, it's not like a moneymaker for me. So it's not like how, you know, if I'm not prolific, it's not going to matter that much. So I sort of have the luxury of treating it more like this beautiful, I don't even want to say hobby, because I feel like that, like, I don't know, downplays the value that it brings to me and hopefully others who hear it, but I think I'm able to just take my time a little bit more and sort of Yeah, like sometimes just kind of wait, but I also feel like, the more often I put myself in the seat, you know, like come into my where I am now, which is like my, my home office music room, and just pick up my guitar and flip through my songwriting journal, and see some snippets of songs that I wrote, listen to some voice memos. Like, I'm much more likely to work on something, I feel really good about that. And that just serves me well, in terms of my confidence as a songwriter, that helps me not feel like such an impostor, because I am doing it in more of a practice like and more of a steady consistent state. And, and I think that can really be a, I don't know, it can build on itself. And so I think maybe I write, tend to write better songs when I'm writing more. But I can see how for some people that it be it is your livelihood, that I mean, that's the hard part. That's what I've heard from people that have done music as, like, have gone to school for music, like music performance, or whatever is it's almost like drummed out of them, the enjoyment of it, the vitality of it, you know, so I never want to lose that by being so regimented. But I also think there's something to be said about using both sides of your brain and like, you know, having the the sort of the business and the artist part of you coming together, I think both are both are needed, if you're really going to do something with I what I see as our gifts, right, like if we want to do something with them and have like a product eventually, we're gonna have to have some sort of a consistent practice of something for sure.

Elle 23:45
Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I mean, because you sort of mentioned it before I'm gonna ask you about like, you know, we're sort of talking about you know, this is what is a good a good book a good song like what to you? What makes an intimate or a love song Good?

Katy 24:04
I I think that you know, that I've thought about this independently and then and then I you know, especially in relation to what we are going to be talking about Yeah, I wanted to give it some thought again, and I think for me what what makes a good love song or heartbreak song, you know, just really like standards No, no, no, the test of time that's like a cheesy statement. But like, you know, have the have the movement. In terminally like in my spirit, like were like, oh, like I'm like compelled to, like what I'm doing is when I'm, I'm identifying this as like a good song is I'm compelled to feel something like I can't I don't have any choice but to feel something because it like just draws it out of me. You know, this, this this experience to listening. So I think what that is, is A common like the common humanity experiences of, of identifying what it feels like to be in love or what it feels like to get your heart broken. It's like someone painting a metaphor of like like and now at a James didn't write at last but she was written by Mark Gordon and Harry Warren I had to look that up because about one of my betters that one of the best love songs that just like a classic love song, right? Yeah, but there she has the line. At last, the skies above our blue like it laughs like, and that's just like, yeah, when you're in love, like when you're in love, the skies open up in there blue all the time. And then when you're and then when your heart is broken, you're pissed off at the people who are singing about how the skies are blue and you're like glaring at the couples walking around together holding they're holding hands because on where you're standing. The like, er, Dark Cloud is like pouring down on you of like rain and sadness. And that's how it feels to be out of love. Right? It feels lonely and, and cold and dark and gray and heavy. And so it's like our whole experience of life changes when we're in or out of love. And so, songs that can evoke that. Like, they can paint a picture through words and melody of what it feels like to embody that experience. Those are songs that I just really like that I go back to and and everyone has a style of like what type of, you know, song they like listening to for me, I was raised on Well, I raised myself on the Lilith fair generation of like singer songwriters. Right so like my bread and butter was like jewel and and Sarah McLaughlin and Indigo Girls and so they were and still are beautiful lyricist. Oh my god yeah. The melodies and just and there's so authentic and heart bearing. And so that's another one for me. Or Tori

Elle 27:03
Amos, I think is Tori Abelson

Katy 27:05
and even like, writer Oh my god. Yeah. Oh, yeah, kind of fairy tale with you like Hi, oh my gosh, hurt. Just she just paints a beautiful picture. But honestly, so does Taylor Swift. I think she is one of like, the most, like, prolific, you know, beautiful songwriters. She and in terms of thinking about what makes a good song or what makes a good, like love or heartbreak song again, I feel like sometimes it's that use of metaphor, or using words in a way to like to compare this to a similar experience that people can, like relate to so she talks about, like, in her song clean. It's about well, it's like a double metaphor because it's like, I now that I've like, withstood the, the flood of like the, like, the you drowning me in all of these, like horrible emotions of pain and loss and whatever. But like I had to, had to all that had to happen in order for me to feel like washed clean, right? Like, I had to feel it all. But also, she uses the metaphor of being clean, like from an addiction. So she taught in the song she sings about being like 10 months sober, like from this person. And if we think again about the neurobiology of all this stuff, like that is also what it feels like when you are heartbroken when you are get broken up with that when you it was like unrequited love, it's like trying to withdraw from an from an addiction. And so and like really like, like neurochemically that's similar, right? So it's like, we still we have that longing and that yearning and, and we just want to try to like behave and not pick up the phone and call that person or like Internet stock. But like we can't help it. Because our brain still needs that hit right? Our brain is still crate. So being clean, being sober from that person is really hard to do. And it's but it's like, once you can get through that, then it's like, then it feels like you feel like back in the land of the living again, but she has a line that says just because you're clean. Don't mean you don't miss it. You know, like, Oh, it's just beautiful. So anything like that, where I'm like, Oh God, I know that feeling right? I know that feeling. Even if I've never, you know, this is like I've never been an addict, but I've been like a love addict. Like I've had my heart broken and like, you know, I've watched someone like literally stomp on it right? And I've just been like, oh my god, I can't I can't go on. I can't go on it feels that powerful. And so any and that's how it is for everybody. Like every you know if you've been through that in your life, like it's the same type of thing that happens to everybody and so can you in an inventive non right way, like describe that experience so that you can get the listener like to go Yes, exactly.

Elle 30:08
Yeah this is so cool it's I had my last book fade into I think it was fade that I did this I had the character was sort of talking about my my main female character was talking about how the person that she was with now maybe it was maybe it was love song maybe it was love song that the man you know that she was falling for sort of turned her life from Sofia tone to technic to Technicolor.

Katy 30:35
Oh my gosh, totally.

Elle 30:38
And that sort of is exactly what you're describing. Oh, and

Katy 30:40
that's a beautiful way. See, that's a beautiful way to play with words because everyone knows what the especially those of us that I was just thinking literally like Wizard of Oz like that. Yeah. Rivas right. Yeah, exactly. Kansas. And then yeah, she lands in us and it's Technicolor. Yeah, that's like, that's the aliveness that somebody feels when they find this person right? Who Yes, it's like their whole world goes from feeling gray to feeling bright colored. And so yeah, how do we in words, paint that picture describe

Elle 31:14
that and you're so good at it. And we'll we'll see when we get into your steamy lyrics I guess

Katy 31:21
CVS I've ever written. I'm not like yeah, I definitely don't write like Taylor Swift where she was like, you know, our clothes were on the floor and this and this I'm like, No, I don't quite write that suggestively but it's more like it's more intimately like you know, I It's like the intimacy of hopefully that comes through in in you know, the the songs that I write and this one that I think you're that I sent to you as like an example of maybe somewhat a one we could talk about is is just like you hopefully can be able to feel the intimate nature of this person's relationship right and compare it to your own of like what that has felt like in your life so yeah, yeah, I think you know, the reverse is again true it's like the the vibrancy of the love and it being taken away again, feeling like sepia tone, but like, almost like like burning sepia tone, like it's paint so painful. Like Sarah McLaughlin does a great job of that she has a song called stupid, and she one lyric says, Love has made me a fool, set me on fire, and watched as I floundered, unable to eke except to cry out and wait for your answer, but you come around in your time speaking of fabulous places, create an oasis that dries up as soon as you're gone and you leave me here burning in this desert without you. Oh, and if we hear that as just outright lyrics, it can feel a little melodramatic but the way that she does that with her like amazing voice and the this amazing melody and orchestration is it's just done so right that it doesn't feel so on the nose and it doesn't feel too melodramatic. It feels like a gut wrenching, but in a beautiful way.

Elle 33:17
Well, here's a question because you know, most romance readers most Ramiz all romance readers get very angry if they don't have a happily ever after, right because you know, now we have you know, in the love song, we they come together and maybe they're fighting it and maybe they're not but then at some point, there's going to be a breakup and a makeup and then maybe another breakup again, and then they're gonna, but it's always gonna work out at the end, right? So, is a heartbreak song a love song? I think I'm gonna shut up about what I think I want to know what you think.

Katy 33:49
Well, I don't think always I mean, I think it's, I think it's like a tribute to love song or like a, like a fuck you love song? Like, I mean, like, I mean, it's always something related to love. So I do I mean, it's a flavor of love. It's lost, you know, so, but for me, I think I'm, like, I'm trying to think of like the, the songs I've written over time, because I wrote a lot of like, love and heartbreak songs like earlier, like when I was, you know, in my early 20s, like before, I you know, late teens, early 20s, before I had met my husband and sort of like we, I mean, we met in college. So I had had some relationships and definite heartbreaks before him, but you know, love, long lasting secure love is not always the most exciting fodder for songs,

Elle 34:38
nor books.

Katy 34:41
Actually, and I want to come back to that later because actually, there are some songs that I really think do a beautiful job of celebrating secure, lasting love, and that it can be something that also can feel very moving. So anyway, but point being that the songs that I wrote wrote back then. Some were just sad and some didn't have a happily ever after. I mean that they were there it was sort of like a, like a grieving type of a song right but but it helped the it's like the happily ever after was sort of like in the movement of being able to like sing and write a song like that it. It didn't know it then, but it helped me get to my happily ever after. Right?

Elle 35:26
That's Yes. And that's where I fall on the I think, I think a heartbreak, even a heartbreak song is a love song, because you're sort of paying tribute to a love that maybe you've lost, but it's part of the sort of larger journey along the way. Right. That's

Katy 35:44
sort of like God bless the broken roads feel right. Yeah, yeah. I think that's so true.

Elle 35:50
Yeah. Because if you hadn't had that heartbreak experience, you wouldn't be able to appreciate the sort of person that comes into your life. That men's the heart, right,

Katy 36:03
yeah, that's so true. It's so true. And, and to be able to know that, like, the difference of how different it feels, then to fall so deeply for someone and to not have it hurt, you know, like, and to know that it can hurt and to know that that's not the end of the story, because it shouldn't, it shouldn't hurt like it should like if it's really, if it's really something that's meant to last like, yeah, you're gonna have struggles and hard times, but But it shouldn't be that hard. Like, my husband and I joked about that is like I had a long distance relationship with with a boyfriend who like it just was really hard, because it wasn't that we weren't right for each other at that time in our lives. And like, there was trust issues and jealousy and all that. And then my husband and I did long distance for like, almost a couple years. And it like it just the juxtaposition of that. It was so easy. Yeah, it sucked because we didn't see each other that often but like, it wasn't, it didn't hurt us. 10 But it didn't hurt. So I think it's just also you know, you then through your own experiences with heart ache, you can you have that to look back on and, and for me, I always like my husband. He's accepted this about me, but I have always tried to keep like, some semblance of a relationship with exes. Because I do. Like, that's inappropriate sense. But just in the sense of like, this person meant so much to me. Yeah. And like I like it's, there's something holy about that, that like, not a lot of people, like rose to the level of importance in my life that those people did. And so there's just feels like something very strange about just going like, close the book. You're done by like,

Elle 37:54
Earth so I am totally.

Katy 37:58
Uh, maybe it's because I can song right through the scorched earth stuff. Like I think, I mean, that's really the song ghost town that that, like, we'll talk about a little bit like that's, that's the scorched earth kind of feeling of like, oh my god, like, it's just so painful. And yet, like, I can now like, be thankful for being able to feel so deeply that it was so hard and that guy. Yeah, I don't know. I just have. And maybe it's also the relationship therapist in me that like always wants to stay connected. And you know where I get Yes. The opposite way my husband's like you Oh, right. Like, that's absurd. Like, to tell you how to just give you an example of this, like, bless his heart, like our 10 year anniversary. We went back to Napa where we had gone on our honeymoon. And one of my exes, is a winemaker at a winery out there. And he went to his winery. And I was just chatting with him. And he gave us a bottle. And like, it was lovely. And I kept checking in with Ed and we talked about it beforehand. And then we like debriefed after. And it was lovely and fine. And I just thought it was just so like, beautiful that that can happen. Yeah. And it's just like, look where your life is, and look where my life is. And it's all good. And I'm so happy for you and like it's just isn't life crazy. And like, I mean, it just goes along with the crazy artists that I am in that like some I just had. I just moved to do things like that. And he's like, okay, that's fine. And he's such a sweetheart. So just yeah, that's how I roll. So so a

Elle 39:37
hottie he shows zooms in here.

Katy 39:41
Oh, he's so cute. And I wrote him a song like actually that's one of those secure Love Song things that I have written about actually on shine. What is that song called? I can't even love. I don't know. I can't think I'll think of it later. But the love Love, I found the love I found, um, because it really talks about how I was who just really jaded when he and I met. And I had come off just like the one of the biggest heartbreaks of my life. And I was of course, they always say, right, so when you're not looking but like, then this person walks into your life, and I was just like, oh, no, I, I was like my senior year of college. I didn't want to start anything significant with somebody, but I just found I found this love with him. And it started I said, the first line is, it was a slow burn when you love this heart. Right?

Elle 40:38
Who doesn't love a slow burn? There are some that don't I don't understand that. Slow Burn. I love

Katy 40:43
the Kacey Musgraves song slow burn like it's just like, Yeah, I'm alright with a slow burn like I am because you don't want like, I needed to take it slow and like he was so patient with that and like it was so worthwhile. And then he was also really patient while I like just was the crazy melodramatic artists temperament that I am and like, had all this drama just internally through, you know, over our relationship. And just always like that love was still waiting for me that was love was always there for me to find over and over and over again. And that's the security of this long term, romantic love. And I just wished like, I'm becoming emotional as I say that, because I wish that for everybody. And sometimes my clients will ask me, like, how can you do this work? Like, how can you work with all these couples like us? Who are having such a hard hard time and I just say I believe in love, and I believe that you deserve it. You really deserve it. And I believe you can get there. Right? If you both are willing and you and there is love like and we can we can help you figure out why you do these things, right? You do these tendencies and you have these negative patterns and you get in this cycle with your partner like we can figure it out but like we just hang in there because it's so worth the kind of like just wiser Kinder stronger love you get to have a part of when you're when you're in Yeah, when you're in this long term love and I think the Indigo Girls and their son power HAVE to do such a beautiful job with with crystallizing the feeling of like, we're okay, we're fine. Like I can chase away the ghosts I can you know scare up those monsters under your bed like don't worry about the shiny trinkets of temptation it's just all fool's gold like we've got the real gold like we've got the love that lasts so Oh, I like

Elle 42:39
the song Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so funny that you mentioned that with that sort of like I always think of my husband as sort of like he he kind of tamed the tempest in me you know like it was

Katy 42:53
oh my gosh you know has been so grounding yeah, like

Elle 42:57
I was the swirling storm and he came in as sort of like you know the calm

Katy 43:02
totally Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Elle 43:04
It's so funny because Okay, I'm gonna because there were some questions that came up for me when I was going through your your lyrics what goes down and I'm really hoping that I can figure out how to insert the song instead of me reading

Katy 43:15
I am not vocally warmed up so please like if anyone like is interested to hear the song I don't want to turn them off to it I'm trying to reproduce it in live right but

Elle 43:25
it is a gorgeous course I'm sure I will figure it out. But but like just in case something goes wrong. I am going to be reading the lyrics from Ghost Town and this is a gorgeous song and it has beautiful lyrics and it's beautiful with the music and the you know, like it I feel like it needs the full the full treatment. But so I just want you to sort of set it I guess because I have the author set up the books you know, be Oh, I lost obviously. Yeah, you know, I don't really know if you can sort of set up a song but let's try it

Katy 43:54
totally. Totally. And I love if you've ever heard that it's an it's a podcast called Song exploder oh, you should totally check it out because it it does that it like goes inside the song and it talks about everything from I mean arrangement and why you made certain musical choices in the song but also just the story of the song with the songs really about and that's the stuff as a as a songwriter first as a lyricist first and as a as a relationship therapist. Also I love hearing the story, you know, so So yeah, for ghost town. I still remember when the melody and those words came to me. They were well I have remember I'm trying to think which child I had an a Baby Bjorn. When there was a child and a baby. I think it was I had both of them maybe and one was walking with you. You're walking in some sort of wooded area this beautiful like, I don't know, Metro park or something. And it was reminiscent of this place that I had spent time in growing up this camp this summer camp. That Just you know, those the same type of trees, the same type of paths, like whatever. And I had this just awareness that it felt like a ghost town version of that, you know, like, like, it's like I'm walking through this same experience, but I can't. But it's not the same experience. And like, you know, having been back to that camp, since like, after that summer romance ended, it's, it also had that effect. And so the beginning of the song is like, I know, this place, like the back of my hand, you know, it's napped in my mind, because I like know how we were in this place. And we were here, and we were here, and we kissed here. And we did this here, and you know, all the things. And now it's like, I see, you know, I don't know, on the I'm going to Disney soon. So I have this sort of, like random images popped up of the Haunted Mansion, when they have the room that you go past for all the ghosts are dancing. Yeah, that in that like, and that's like, what I like vision is like, like, he and I like, like, you know, running into the woods. It's like, I saw that happening as if we were like, like the ghosts of us doing

Elle 46:14
it's like a specter of the, of this thing that happened.

Katy 46:18
Right. And so just the imagery of just also the idea of what a what a ghost town is, is like those towns that would be kind of set up and then abandon people would like go I don't know, the great, you know, Western migration of like the, the gold diggers or any, any of that, right where they set up shop, and then they kind of just left, it's like, you came in as fast as you left as fast as you came in. Like, to my heart, it's like you set up shop in my heart. And then it's like, as quick as you did that you were gone. And you just left me with all these like relics with all these just memories, and it just feels like now there's just cobwebs over it. And I'm walking around it and I'm feeling the feelings coming back. But also with this sort of like edge to it this sadness, this, maybe even bitterness, this like longing, yearning, all of those things.

Elle 47:06
Okay. My God, I don't know where to begin, because there were so many questions that are like that you've just like exploded in my mind. And I'm like, but we're talking about that, and we're talking about that. So I'll just go in the order of the song. So I'm gonna, like I said, I'm gonna read this out. But hopefully, I'll be able to insert the music. I know, this place like the back of my hand, I have it mapped out in my mind. It's been a decade, maybe more like a dozen years. But when I'm here, I'm back in time. You were like a siren song that called me to your shore, my ship was bound by your gravity. And even though you called for someone else, instead, I still hold on to hope that you choose, you'd choose me. So here's my question, okay, or sort of like, you know, sort of thinking about this. So I'm writing seems to come from such a deeply, deeply personal place. Like it's always feels so autobiographical, but novelists kind of were like, oh, at the idea if somebody says, Oh, is your work autobiographical? We're like, Oh, God, no, you know, you know, and I definitely hope like Stephen King isn't out there dressing up as penny wise to arrive. Right?

Katy 48:16
The disturbing part is like, how do people get these thoughts?

Elle 48:21
But like, yeah, it is. So you know, and I think I think to some extent, novelists lie. You know, I do think we base things on events that have happened to our lives. Or I would say, maybe, maybe more broadly, for me, it's like sort of journeys. It's really interesting. Every time I write a book, I go, Oh my God, that's how I felt in my 40s. Or, oh my God, that's how I felt my teens or, you know, and so I think that my characters are sort of mapping out similar milestone feelings. But to fry it from such a personal place to lay it. So Bear because you had said that there was one particular person that you're writing about here, right? How do you do that? Because honestly, I think that's the struggle with writing intimate moments, because so much of intimacy that the love scenes that I'm writing, are really writing from a deeply personal emotional place. Yeah, that's hard.

Katy 49:12
It is hard. Well, and I'm extremely protective of it and yes, noxious about it. And so I don't even like my family being in the other room when I'm like in songwriting mode. I don't like my husband like hearing anything I've written, especially if I'm like, writing about another like lover like, right. Oh, so that's who you were thinking about all afternoon and your like, songwriting session, like it's, you know, that can be that can be a conversation. So that is it's like a very weird occupational hazard of like, songwriting in that way, if you're gonna write from personal experience, and so, actually, it was also I heard Taylor Swift to talk about, I wish I had just heard her and like, you know, she and I are friends. And I'm like, Yeah, I heard her talk. And

Elle 49:58
now we're talking the other day.

Katy 50:01
but it did not end up like that. No, it was from an interview or something where she was saying now in like her two newest albums, she's explored writing as different characters. So actually not having experienced those same things. And she was she wasn't sure how her audience how her fans are Swifties would take that, because she's always like, it's always been, the big question is like, Who's this song about? Like, who, you know, which famous person did she write this song about? That she's dated. And so for her, it like kind of was freeing, I think, to be able to create characters, and it opened up her songwriting in a really unique way. And so I'm kind of excited about that, too. Like, I haven't ever done that in that way. Because either I'm writing songs about firsthand experiences, or I'm writing about more universal themes, like, like, loving kindness and interconnectedness and nature and just sort of like more of the, I don't know, not religious, but spiritual parts of the experience. So yeah, I don't know. What was your question, though?

Elle 51:04
Do you write from such a personal place in life? Right? Yeah. Like,

Katy 51:08
yeah, like, well, I get very, yeah, I get very like, into internalizing about it, I get very protective, I get very quiet, I get very, get very embarrassed. And I also, like, even while it was very, I used to be very melodramatic about it. Like I remember in college, like after I'd recorded the album that I did during that time, I literally gave my ex the album, because, well. You might as well know. Yeah, it was the mixtape that your ex has written about you, all the songs are uniquely crafted about just shitty nature of how we like, how you made me feel you horrible person? No, like I tried to do that in a very like, but I just want you to know that like, you meant that much to me that here are the songs about you. I have no idea what effect it had for him. He was probably mortified. I don't know. But for me, it was this very, like, again, just very Oh, soulful, dramatic thing that I could do. And but it felt very organic. And so I don't know, like, they're, you know, the person that I wrote ghost town about, like, we've we haven't had that type of exchange ever about, like, you know, him knowing that I that I'm writing songs about him even like 20 years after? Or I guess when I wrote that song, it was like a decade after, right? It's been a decade almost, you know, 12 years, but there are those relationships that are just, they affect you in the way that way because they were so you know, you fell so head over heels or whatever it is, right. So I guess I just have tried to become accepting about what comes up in my songwriting process, if like, oh, like, wow, he came up again around that. And like, let's just use that as my muse, then I joke that he's sort of my muse, right. And not someone I'd want to get back into relationship with, of course, but someone who just like helps me, right. Like, I think some make the beautiful songs I hope, are nice, shouldn't not write about that just because I feel awkward. So because I know also, again, I'm married to this, like beautifully patient understanding man who is not, you know, intimidated, or thinks I'm going to, you know, leave him and so he feels secure in our love. And so it also allows me to do that. And so that's been Yeah, that's been something that has just been an interesting part of the journey of like, how is that? How has that looked? And how will it look, because actually, that the songs on the EP, that I the songs that I have been writing through pandemic, have actually been more about my internal struggles, like more about mental health and about kind of the universal struggle of like loneliness and feeling disconnected from others. You know, about just more more about pain. And, and that's also been a little hard to share in a different way with him again, it's no surprise that that's the way I've been feeling. But, you know, I never want him to be like, Oh, God, are you okay? Like in like a pity way? Like, just because I wrote a song like this. But if he doesn't say the right thing, then I actually take it very personally, like, poor thing. Like, he doesn't know what to say. I was like, can you just play me a song like, can you play? And I like, no matter what he says, in response, it's not the right thing. Yeah. So I just, I feel bad for him because I can't help it because I'm such a critic of my own. That I want his feedback, but I also don't

Elle 54:56
Yeah, I know. I'm lucky my husband won't read my room. that says, I mean, he read my urban fantasies, bless his heart, he was great. But he's just like, yeah, I draw the line, he won't read the romances. And on the one hand, I'm like, really kind of it makes me kind of sad, because I want to share it with him, you know, but on the other hand, I'm like, he's not my target audience. This is for him. I'm not writing it for him. You know what I mean? Like, now he shouldn't be reading these. But at the same time, I'm like, I really wish he was reading with that, you know, like,

Katy 55:22
because it and I think that's what ultimately what made me decide to start trying, trying to share my writing with him a little bit more is because like, that helps me helps him feel closer to me. And helps he helps me trust him more. With with all parts and sides of me. There's this beautiful song by Atlantis Morissette called everything. Oh, gosh. And I it's like, I kind of use it as the little like mascot for my love story with with my husband, because it's like, you see everything you see all my highs, all my lows, all my dark. You love me, you know, what I resist persists. And you love me no matter what it just oh my gosh, it's worth a listen. Even if you don't aren't on Atlantis lover, this song is just gorgeous. And so I think that's another part of secure Love is like, can this person not that you know that it's not okay to have anything be your own. Right. And and I also believe in autonomy. But I really think that it's been a beautiful gift that I can give him to trust him with my songs a bit more than I used to. Because that's a way that he can start to be led into a part of my world that I've been very protective of over time.

Elle 56:45
I kind of feel like this is like a fun idea. Maybe for a conference, I don't know, if I could do a podcast, I'd love to have the romance writer, husbands or wives because their amendment might romance like or partners, I should say, for sure. In our panel and sort of saying, hey, like, what is it to be on the other side of this?

Katy 57:05
torturous? I don't even know.

Elle 57:08
No, you know, no, maybe you know, like, oh, like, what is it like to have a spouse that's writing such intimate moments? And you know, D, you know, I mean, I always get though My poor husband sometimes is with me where, you know, they hear what I do. And they're like, Oh, you must have a really interesting sex life. And it's so inappropriate. Awkward. Yeah. But, um,

Katy 57:33
that would be really interesting. Because, yeah, from, like you said, some, some writers are not, I mean, they, it's more like going to work. It's your job. It's like, you know, go to work with my husband. That's right. So it's like, they can have their own experience in their own thing. I don't need to know everything about that. Like, but yeah, if they want to tell me about it. Sure. Great. Like, but yeah, maybe I'm not their target demographic, and aren't gonna understand all the ins and outs of that. And so just like, if my husband works in like, I don't know, the tech industry, am I going to, like, have that much interest in it?

Elle 58:02
You're not gonna go programming with them? Yeah.

Katy 58:06
But it's very different. For me, this is very different. Because it's human emotions. Because it's, and that's, that's a part of our relationship. And so, but they're my emotions, and they're my experience is that then this is my, this is my real long term relationship. So yeah, it's this dance of like, how much do I share and, and again, he's been just very respectful, very respectful, always. And that allows me to feel even safer, right, sharing the intimate parts of, you know, the song, right, the songwriting journey, and I think, I think maybe more so then. All of the content, I might just share a little bit more with him about my process, meaning like, yeah, Song wrote today for a couple hours, or Yeah, I did this podcast with Elle. And I was talking about songwriting, and I'll let him listen to this podcast, right. Like and, and, and so I think he gets windows into that. And I think that is kind of, you know, another chapter in our love story is like, again, how we let each other into our inner worlds, right? That's interesting. Yeah.

Elle 59:14
Okay, I'm gonna read. I think I think we're in chorus now. Okay, got it. Yeah. But it's like a ghost town in this place. And in my heart, you cleared out as fast as you came in. I walk past our relics all around me and I sigh as you hold me captive once again. Okay, songwriting is so much about metaphor, right. And I definitely try and weave things into my writing with varying degrees of success. I had one that I posted on Facebook yesterday with the wrong Heger that I was quite proud of as I go through my edits, but it's hard and especially hard to find an original metaphor right like and I feel like this song is obviously littered with it because that's really song speak in metal. For us, and they're all so original. And how do you how do you do that? Tell me how you do that. Give me your secret.

Katy 1:00:08
Well, I think I can hear when it's bad, I hope like when it comes out and sometimes it just needs to come out like I know, Ed Sheeran again, I know Ed Sheeran. I know comma. We're like writes, talks about writing songwriting as like, he just writes all the thing, like even he writes bad songs, he has to write a bunch of bad songs to get to a good song. And so I might have to write up it cuts like a knife lyric to like, but it feels so right to like get to get to like a slightly higher brown metaphor that hasn't been used over and over and over again. So it means nothing. But sometimes you'll still hear that in a song and it like won't be the worst thing, or you're a part of that overused metaphor. And so I think it really is, that's the cool thing about melody and arrangement is that like, if it were just a lyric, and you're like, it cuts like a knife, and then then then like, it'd be like, Oh, this is bad. But, you know, if you can use your voice or use, you know, phrasing or pitch differences to create, again, sort of this painting this like, audio visual painting of that experience, then maybe the cutting of the knife is your feeling it on your skin and the cold blade of this or that or, you know, are there ways to nuance even, like, you know, a hackneyed metaphor so I think I definitely try to I actually really liked some country music because it turns the normal phrases on their head and uses them in really clever ways. Even if the song ends up is sort of like cheesy or like to Honky Tonk or like that like slide guitar thing that if you have a little too much of it's like, oh my gosh, but I actually really respect like, so many amazing singer songwriters like flocked to Nashville, because like, so much songwriting is done there. And so it's all about lyrics and wordplay. Yeah, and so the wordplay aspect of it. That's where I think I just, I'm always trying to listen to those stations to those types of songs so that I can hear what they do with words and phrases. So that I can like like Miranda Lambert, like hurt. She has a song called like, it'll all it'll all come out in the wash. Like so. You've heard that before. Right? As in the way she does it in her song. Like, you know, like, Oh, you, you, you did this kind of embarrassing thing. You did this or that you brought your you know, you brought your I don't know who is it your Brett, your fiance's brother to some wet? I don't know, I can't remember the lyrics. But basically like Don't worry. Don't worry if you did awful embarrassing things. It'll all come out in the wash a tide stick look at it like that. Just like that funny little like, Oh, interesting, like, cute. Um, and there's some cute things that that also if they're done with the right like, musical stylings, vocal stylings, like, they, you can really get with that. So and it's also a taste thing. You know, some, I think that's just like anything like, not everybody is a romance novel person, not everybody is a is a female, you know, modern country song person not. And so I think that a certain metaphor in a certain style of song works and works for that target audience, whereas it does not translate well, for a different type of audience. Right.

Elle 1:03:47
Right. Well, okay, here's my question, do you? You had mentioned sort of like writing cheesy lyrics, and you're like, oh, god, okay. Do you end up throwing? Do you just throw away the whole song? Or do you sit with the song and like, rewrite it and rework it? Well,

Katy 1:04:01
then I usually I try not to throw anything away. If I'm really mad at it, I'll cross it out, but it stays in my journal. I'll just be like, Oh, this is unredeemable? Like, but I still let it stay. I don't do the whole, like crunch the paper and throw it away thing. Because I still think like, Well, that was what came out of me organically in that moment. And I'll I'll just have phrases that I would love to use, but I haven't found the song that they can, they can survive in right. So we were there was one. We were like, like a deck something about like, we were like a deck of cards that couldn't cut it or something. And it sounds kind of like cool. It's like what it's like I'm almost sometimes I'll feel like I'm almost there. But I can't quite get there or I'll come down and that's when I'll flip through my journal. And that's when maybe I'll do sort of like a songwriting session with myself where I'll just do a retro perspective of like, Yeah, what about this phrase? And can I come back to that? And what if I played with that over here? What if I tried that with this chord pattern? What if I tried that with this melody? What if I tried to expand on that metaphor? So that's where the playfulness comes in. And the sort of like, don't take yourself too seriously thing, which I have a hard time doing for such a long time I took myself so goddamn seriously. And like my art so seriously. And I think that like, you know, it was just too much too much. I think as the older I get, I have just, I just need to relieve some of that pressure that I put on myself. So just just write a bad lyric of just write what comes out and then you can fix it. You can always fix it in Edit date.

Elle 1:05:41
Right? Right. Right. It'll be it'll work itself out another day. Yeah. Okay, one last little bit or a longer longer bet. I was worth a try it No, sorry.

Katy 1:05:53
Fix that way backup, we can fix it.

Elle 1:05:57
We'll fix that another day. It was worth a try to see if I could be in the space without you. How did I do did I pull through while I'm standing here now under skies, so blue. Now it's like a ghost town only if I make it. So I choose what it all means to me. And I can either pine for you or just enjoy the view and create new memories and create new memories. And I can learn to love again.

Katy 1:06:23
See the blue sky came in at the end, right?

Elle 1:06:26
I know and see i What i really loved about this is like you took us through the whole journey. And like, what, three minutes it's just one song, right? We had that we had the opening. We had the beginning we had the middle the end, we had that sort of dramatic, you know the climax. We have all of that going on, in like, three minutes. And like I can't even write a novella and feel like I told the entire story. Give me more words, and I'm just like, Well, I'm

Katy 1:06:52
a very wordy lyricist. I've heard like the spiny vibrator. Like he'll always tell that to me. He's like, can you say that that with less words. And I'm like, You know what, Jewel is a very wordy lyricist. Okay. So like, the style that I write in, but I do I try to like, take his feedback. But yeah, I think that's the challenge sometimes. But then the beautiful thing is like, ooh, where does that turn? Go? Where does that like that in the bridge of a song. If you're thinking about song structure, the bridge of a song is melodically where it changes for the listener because you've got like verse, chorus, verse, verse, verse, verse, chorus, verse chorus, bridge and bridge feels different and the listener needs it to feel different by then Right? They need to be surprised a bit and that's also when sort of this epiphany in the song or a turn like in sort of this like data did I pull through like what will happen? What will the you know? How will this conclude for for this person this character? Me and the story right? Well, I realized it was only a ghost town if I made it so I in that for me, I brought some of my therapy work professionally and personally to be honest like into that in the style of like, there's there's a therapy called Narrative Therapy where you are the hero of your own story and you can either write it like you're the victim of your story you can write out like the hero of your story and so I was really in a you know, not I don't know the victim place writing is sort of the beginning of the song right? Gosh, this ghost town and it's like, it holds me captive right? So really, it's it's an imagery a bit of a victim imagery, and then it's like, but I get to choose I can shift the narrative I get to choose what it means for me what meaning I make of it, and I can choose to be able to not like pine for you but to just like when I'm here in this place. Enjoy the view and to be honest that started out as enjoy the Pines instead of pine for you enjoy the pines and and I was like, Ooh, that's a little too on the nose. That's that's that's not gonna that's not gonna work. So that was me being almost there. But then I just wanted to enjoy the view because that's such an also phrase that we hear a lot of the time Yeah, I just enjoy the view. But that's where I mean because you actually in this song you were in a in this place. And I realized I mean legitimately I had that experience of going again back to this camp back to this place with my family where I brought my husband to this place I brought my girls to this place on like this family weekend and it took on a new meaning. And that was the love that I was able to find like and and I'll always have those memories I'll always see right the little that the dancing ghosts in the in the trees right of like that that love but it's it at actually was able to house brand new memories now, which is a beautiful thing.

Elle 1:10:08
Wow. Oh my god, this was beautiful. Katie, thank you so much for

Katy 1:10:13
doing QL This is wonderful. Thanks so much for thinking of me and just for letting me have the time to talk about something that I like am in love with, which is music and songwriting and lyrics. And just like the emotional experience of it all. So thank you.

Elle 1:10:32
Oh, and you actually inspired a what is probably going to be a second chance romance with just something that you said, for my series. So when I finally figured out what that is going to be that book is going to be dedicated to you. So what's coming up? What do you have coming up next?

Katy 1:10:54
Yeah, yeah, my EP, which an EP for those of you who are like romance novel people, and that's why you're listening. You're like, what is that it's called extended play versus long play an LP is what we think of as an album, which like, is typically tended to songs full length, right? An EP is just a mini album. So I'm hoping for six songs, Walden, the first single off of that has already been released. So that's on all streaming platforms, you can listen to it. And if you go to Katie overley.com, or if you go to Katy, overly on YouTube, you can see I did a little music video for Walden as well, which is kind of fun. And so the the songs that I'll have on there, in addition, are ones that I'm like, currently recording, which is really exciting. And working on the arrangements. I'm what they call a top line songwriter. So I just have the melody and a basic guitar part. And then I work with a wonderful, wonderful musician, and collaborator, to create things like the ghost town arrangement that are like, you know, a guitar part I could never do, and like this cool effects on guitar and stuff, that it just helps bring the song to a new level. And I'm really excited about that opportunity. So again, I think the next step is weaving in my background as a therapist, and as a songwriter, to to merge, merge the two a little bit more. So you'll see me in the future, doing workshops on creativity, and like the therapeutic benefits of that you know, how creativity can be mindful of how it can be a spiritual practice, how it can help us care for ourselves can be healing, it can help with our coping. So yeah,

Elle 1:12:32
I love this. I think we're gonna have to collaborate on something that in that way, too. And I don't know if we've talked about this before. So maybe this is an off line conversate different offline conversation that I would love to sort of get into. That sounds

Katy 1:12:44
great. Oh, I would love that future collaboration. sounds delightful. Well, thank you.

Elle 1:12:50
Where can listeners find you on the internet? Yeah, so

Katy 1:12:52
I'm right now Katie? overley.com is my website. It's getting a redesign. So if it looks like a page under construction, make sure to just email us that would be great. And you can have all the updates but I'm on Instagram is Katie overly, again, Katie with a Y OB er L E. And I'm on Facebook is Katie overly creative. And you can Yeah, all of my songs. So shine, which goes down is on is on all streaming platforms and then that's where the EP will be. Hopefully in the spring.

Elle 1:13:24
I will include some links in the show notes so that it's easy for everybody to just click a link and find you Katie, thank you so much for doing this. It was so awesome to have you

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