Aug. 3, 2022

Delivering the goods with Cat Wynn

Delivering the goods with Cat Wynn

Cat Wynn joins me on the steam seat this week! We’re talking about achieving the perfect snack, what makes alpha males alpha (it’s not what you think!), and why Partner Track was the first book she ever finished. Come for the snacks but stay for the steam when I read an intimate moment from Partner Track.


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Tall, Dark & Fictional podcast



Elle 0:00
Cat win lives in a cozy house in Charleston, South Carolina, with her longtime partner and to geriatric rescue dogs. She writes dirty, funny romance late at night on an old couch that should have probably been thrown out five years ago. She's a shockingly good time at parties provided the snacks are good. You can test this theory by inviting her to your wedding. Welcome cat to CMC ins. Thank you for being here.

Cat 0:25
Thank you so much for having me.

Elle 0:27
Okay, my first question, what makes a good snack?

Cat 0:30
You know, it's really a combination of savory and sweet and whatever the hell I'm in the mood for at the moment.

Elle 0:36
Okay, give me an example.

Cat 0:38
So, obviously, a charcuterie board is going to really hit all the right notes and cheese platter, of course, because you know, basic pitches got a basic bit. So give me some break. Some Cameron bear, give me some crackers and some jam. I'm good to go.

Elle 0:58
That actually sounds delicious.

Cat 1:01
I'm telling you.

Elle 1:03
So thank you so much for being here. It's really great to have you. And we're going to be talking about your rom com debut your workplace rom com partner track, which is your very first book, congratulations,

Cat 1:18
you I'm a baby. Just a little baby.

Elle 1:21
Little baby. So how long did it take for you to write that?

Cat 1:24
It took about 38 years, I would say? No, it took me honestly, once I figured out that I could write an entire novel. It took me about three months. And then oh, just for the first draft. And then honestly, it went really fast. For me. This particular novel, every novel is kind of a little bit different. And this one came out pretty quick. Yeah.

Elle 1:46
So okay, so this is your first published book, but how many have you written novels before that are sitting in a drawer somewhere? So

Cat 1:53
none? This is the first book I've ever read, which I know sounds bad.

Elle 1:59
No, no, no.

Cat 2:01
I mean, the first book I've ever finished. So I started, you know, hundreds, hundreds of books, and right, I've written like, 50,000 words into a historical romance, and then just dropped it because I didn't know how to construct a plot, which is kind of vital. I don't know if you know this. I don't know if you've ever heard this before. But you do need a plot.

Elle 2:23
I know if you talk to my editor, she'll probably be like, Yeah, I'll construct a plot either. I mean,

Cat 2:29
you cannot subsist on vibes alone. Like you actually need a conflict and you need a plot and you got to kind of work with those things. Once I figured out some mechanics of writing a story. I think like the craft of writing, I had already honed, not that I'm like some amazing, right, you know what I'm saying? But it's like, I had already written a lot. So it didn't take me that long once I figured that part out. Yeah.

Elle 2:53
Right. I you know, sometimes I think in a way plot can be like the hardest thing to figure out. I it is for me, it is for me to

Cat 3:02
Yeah, I'm like, what is it? So what is it people do here? Like? That's the question. I'm always asking myself, like, what is it we actually do in our lives? And then that becomes a very complicated answer. Because the truth is, I don't know, I do nothing. I just like do nothing. So like, Truly this all comes from my brain. Like, this is really a fantasy here that you get to live live out my fantasy with me?

Elle 3:27
Well, I think, you know, I think especially for romance. So when I started writing, I actually was writing urban fantasy before I was writing romance. And so your plot is usually very action driven, right? And so and so for me, it's like, well, somebody needs to pull out a gun, or else I don't know what we're gonna do. Right? Like, you know, so. So it's been very, the transition to romance has been really hard for me to sort of rely on the relationship between the love interests to sort of be the thing that drives the plot, as opposed to having some sort of like, explosion, right? Or, you know, something super dramatic, you know, like, the world is gonna end and we have to save, you know, and that's like, because that's kind of I mean, I hate to say that's an easy plot, but you know, it kind of

Cat 4:12
is there's easy conflict there.

Elle 4:15
Right, right. As opposed to like feeling oh my gosh, so hard feelings are messy.

Cat 4:20
They are embarrassing to show. That's definitely a big part of romance getting over your embarrassment like just getting past it. I can I can swear right?

Elle 4:30
Oh my god, I'm a sailor.

Cat 4:31
I just make sure getting the fuck over it. Yeah, that's the big that is such a challenge. Although good crossover with urban fantasy and romance. That's a good crossover right there two good skills for genre writing.

Elle 4:45
Yeah, I like to say my characters either either fighting or fucking so I mean it's sort of like the most primal instinct is living the dream. I mean, I am going to merge the two at some point with the paranormal. I just don't know when I'm going to do it. Yes. But I think what you like you're really onto something. And I think it's so funny like talking about writing the naughty bits and writing the steamy bits, there is a little bit of a discomfort there. And I think that that does stem from a little bit of like giggling embarrassment.

Cat 5:17
It's fully like puritanical upbringing, shame based, like, blur out the naughty bits on public TV or whatever. That's, that's fully where I get it all from. And you just have to say, like, fuck it, I'm gonna go full cringe. I'm gonna embarrass myself and I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna do this SEC scene. Right? You know, that's what you have to do.

Elle 5:39
Right? Right. And I do think that there is something to that about, you know, blurring out the naughty bits on TV. Because when you think about we are exposed to so much violence and pop culture. You know, nobody blurs out the gunshots, the explosions, the dead bodies, the blood, but they do blur out the sound.

Cat 6:00
Yeah, it's, I'm not quite sure why I think like we elevate war is something important that men do. Violence is something important that men do, although everybody, you know, engages in violence to some degree, but like sex and love, as far as it's looked at as something important is like, we can't handle that as a culture just yet. Like, we're not there. I don't know that we will get there or whatever. But yeah, that's the double standard.

Elle 6:29
Yeah, yeah. And it is definitely seen as like a quote unquote, feminine. Right. Right. So that which is which is so funny, which is so weird and funny, because it's like, you know, I mean, my mama way more romantic.

Cat 6:42
thema Singh. And I write romance. He is so romantic. He is so sensitive. I mean, I wouldn't Yeah. It's like,

Elle 6:53
do you celebrate balance? You know, I

Cat 6:55
don't I am very much not a conventional kind of person. So I don't, but I think he would if I wanted to, he certainly would. Do you do?

Elle 7:05
And every year he asked me, What do you want me to get for Valentine's Day you for Valentine's Day? And I'm like, if you get me something I'll fucking like that's what I thought.

Cat 7:14
I mean, it at least it gives you strong feelings.

Elle 7:17
Yes, it does. It does. And I'm always going off like that fucking home or

Cat 7:23
it's like way too. There's way too much capitalism infused in valentine's day for me to feel any kind of certain way about it. Like I'm just like, Sure. Give me candy, I guess. But. But also, yeah, I mean, my partner is also such a way that like, he, I'm just really lucky. I will say I'm lucky. I definitely don't deserve 100%. I do not. I I always never hear women say they don't deserve their male partners. But I this is the case for me. He just he'll get me anything anytime. Like, I don't know. So like Valentine's Day doesn't feel like special. He does like everything for me. I should probably ask you to edit this out. But I well. He's great. He's great. Yeah,

Elle 8:05
no, and I wouldn't either because he's totally going to or he's going to hold it against you. I mean, he knows it's true. He knows it's true. Okay, okay. So there you go. No, you know, I think I think that's really funny because I am sort of heat my husband is so I'm not sure I'm more romantic than me. And here I am pounding away writing, pounding, literally writing, literally pounding away. And he's just, and then it's like, you know, he's Oh, flowers. I'm like, why would you buy me flowers? You're spending money on something that's going to draw? Yeah.

Cat 8:35
I don't, I don't mind the morbidity of that. You know, it's a little interesting.

Unknown Speaker 8:40
Like my cold black.

Cat 8:42
Just gonna watch these wither and fade on my kitchen table. Like, why? And

Elle 8:47
that's exactly what they do, actually. When I get the flowers. So, you know, he has way more of that going than I do. And yeah, and I love it that you have the same because yeah, that matters. So okay, so this is your first finished book. And you have so when did you start writing?

Cat 9:10
Um, so sadly, I started writing right away. Like it was a curse. I you know, I I think I wrote like, my first story when I was like six years old. I remember it was a mystery with like, the two main characters were like dogs, and they were saw and like a cat was the villain which I like cats. By the way. I'm not trying to build a nice cats. But yeah, I just remember writing that in a notebook when I was really young. And I don't really have like my grandfather's also a writer, but as far as I can tell, that's like the sole genetic writerly component that I received from my family. But it was enough to make me this desperate little creative person before you today. I've always been writing. I haven't always been writing well Oh, and I probably and I still don't write well, very often, but yeah.

Elle 10:04
So did you? Did you sort of like grow up being like, I'm going to be an author someday? Or did you detour into something completely?

Cat 10:10
New, I surely wanted to be an author that was like the dream. And then I worked every stupid, shitty job anyone could ever write. And, uh, right could work. And I, and then I don't know, I just one day, I just decided I was just gonna go for it. And I was like, let's make this. You know, don't let your dreams be dreams. Let's like make this real. And I did it. That's kind of like a strange thing to say. I don't. Yeah, I always wanted to be a writer and okay, and sometimes you got to work shitty jobs to that's just the truth of it.

Elle 10:46
Yeah, I know. But you know, the, the goal is to write enough that you don't.

Cat 10:53
anymore, then you make writing your shitty job. And that's

Elle 10:59
because there's always something that's

Cat 11:02
fully anti work. So yeah.

Elle 11:06
And just for the record, I have seen your couch on Instagram. And while it looks a little like tired, it also looks very comfortable. And

Cat 11:14
like a really great writing. Yeah, I had to put a cover over it because it was so gross as like, there is no saving this thing. There is no professional cleaning in the world. Like, it's really gotta go. But i i In the dogs, we are very attached to it.

Elle 11:30
Oh, I know, when the puppies love something, too. It's hard to you know,

Cat 11:33
I know it's so hard, even if it's gross.

Elle 11:40
So, okay, so it was so when you said like, I gotta I gotta do this thing. I've got to do this thing is that when you actually did sit down and write partner track? Or is that when you started writing your 50,000 words of sort of historical

Cat 11:56
Yeah, that was when I sat down a real partner track. I just so I think what had happened was I was running a small business where it was taking up all my time, I was just so tired and exhausted, and then COVID hit and all these restrictions happen. And for me, it was actually a good thing. Obviously, writ large, it was a terrible thing. And I wish it hadn't happened. But I did like personally benefit in certain ways. And one of those ways was I was able to gear down my business, which had just become such a nightmare to manage. But I was able to reduce it, make it smaller, and then focus on writing. And once I did that, once I had like some time and a clear mind, I, I found myself writing the story that was just kind of in my head. And the story didn't start the way it ended up as they usually, you know, they usually don't, it started as something else. And then it just came out of me. Sometimes it happens that way. Sometimes it doesn't.

Elle 12:58
Right, right. So may I ask what you do or did prior.

Cat 13:03
So I had, this is gonna sound a little strange. I had a dog walking business, which was really so much work. Like I had, I couldn't imagine because I had people I you know, I was like managing other people, too. So it was like, I just had, like so many clients, so many dogs, so many people to manage.

Elle 13:25
And it sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Cat 13:29
It was exhausted. And my husband was like, why are you working so hard at this like in the most in the nicest way? He was like, Why are you killing yourself at this job, like, I don't even think you like it that much. Although I do love walking dogs because as a neurodivergent person, I can't cannot work at a desk for me, I can't work for people, I have to be like free. I have to be like in charge of my schedule and myself. And I love to be like outside walking. And I was just like, I don't know why I'm like killing myself over this job. Like, I don't know why I'm doing that. And then, you know, having to gear down my business just, it made me think like, I should probably actually go after what I want in life and not just settle for a thing that I think I deserve. Like I should go after the thing I think I don't deserve which is being a writer, and then I got it.

Elle 14:17
Oh, can we unpack? Why do you think you didn't deserve?

Cat 14:21
I mean, I want to know what you think about this too. But I like look, I come from a bad family and I had a bad childhood and you know, bad childhoods equal trauma in your 20s the 20s like in my 20s was just like a wild time. And so I just never saw myself as somebody kind of worthy of a creative job. When I knew that was my calling. Like I knew it deep down inside have always known it and I've always an eye and so I just I thought that I didn't deserve to go after the thing that I really wanted. I don't know it's so much to unpack. Thank you for this therapy session. And thank you so much. That'll be on the way do you feel? Did you have that feeling?

Elle 15:07
Well, you know, it's actually very funny. This has actually been so on my mind lately, right? And I'm so funny, you're gonna post a story about this on Instagram today that I just didn't have time to do. Because I sort of picked up okay, hold on everyone, I gotta like, look up the IG that because there was this kind of great quote, by a psychologist that I follow on IG and many children, I'm quoting, many children are raised in homes where they're expected to perform, achieve and compete to provide self worth to a parent, then we wonder why we have a society of anxious adults. And that, like so resonated with me and so many ways. You know, a lot of people don't know this, because they don't talk about this. I have a sibling, I have a sister. And we're estranged. And part of the reason I think, while we're estranged, yada yada, yada. You know, ultimately, that doesn't matter. But she's unbelievably smart, like, PhD at very fancy expensive schools, like, super smart. And I was always a little, like, more creative and a little bit like, weirder, and I didn't like school. I didn't like sitting through school, I didn't like, being told what to do. I thought this, I thought the shit we were studying was truly shit. You know? And so I was very rebellious. And anyway, that I was kind of I wasn't like the good student, right? And so in, so it wasn't looking like it wasn't looking at the kid and being like, well, actually, you're really smart. You're just not interested in this thing we're forcing you to do right. It was well, you're not the smart one. Your sister's the smart one. And so for me, it was like, Well, only smart people write books. Yes. That was the thing much. And so even though I wanted to write I ultimately, when I started writing creatively, I wrote plays, because stupid people. But like, stupid people are actors, right? Like that's, like actors aren't smart. Like, that's always been the thing, right? And that's actually what I started doing in high school, is I did a lot of acting, I went to university as an acting student, and then got incredible stage fright. And playwriting. And because I could just, I could write plays like that was the thing I could do. I loved doing it. But to actually write a book felt completely out of reach for me, because I was the stupid one and stupid people don't write books.

Cat 17:46
That's so interesting how you internalize that message. And it's interesting how your creative creativity, and your skill still happened. Even though you had that internalized message. You were like, Well, I'm gonna write plays as if that's not extremely difficult, like a huge undertaking.

Elle 18:04
But you don't actually have to write descriptions, which is really nice. But lately, but yeah, I you know, I think that there is something there. And I think that that also, like I was reading somewhere or some, some therapists was like, There's no such thing as imposed or syndrome, but something that we've made up and I'm like, No, actually, there is a thing of and I think that's why I have such impostor syndrome, because it's like, I'm the dumb one. Yeah, I'm stupid. You know. So I don't know if that's kind of similar to what you're talking about. But I totally am relating to what you're saying.

Cat 18:33
I think, yes. I mean, I was, I was not, I was, so I a little different. For me, I was considered like a gifted child that just didn't live up to my potential. And that's kind of like, and the reason I didn't live up to this, like conventional, quote, unquote, potential is because well, one, I'm neurodivergent. And I just do not operate the way other people operate. Like, I just don't. And when you're like a smart kid, you can definitely get by with a lot, because you're curious about a lot of things. But as you get older, and you know, school is really kind of like based off of prison, you know, so it's like a prison or it's like a factory job. Like, that's really what they kind of based the whole construct of school from, or at least when I was in school, and you know, that for someone like me, I did not respond well to that. And therefore, I think like to my parents, that became this huge disappointment because she was our gifted child who just is so lazy or just like, doesn't try hard. And of course, that's not true about me at all. I'm extremely not lazy. But you can't get me to do shit I don't want to do and that's kind of the difference.

Elle 19:45
Well, you know, I mean, stubborn maybe, but definitely not least, right? You know what I mean? Like, and I agree with that. Yeah, I was also told that I was lazy and why don't I just apply

Cat 19:54
right as if, as if you could just do that. As if that was a thing, everyone could just do as if we're all exactly the same.

Elle 20:02
Right? If you just applied yourself you do better. And it was like, Well, no, I mean, why am I gonna apply myself to something that I, I want absolutely no part of that right?

Cat 20:11
And like the night off seems not great. I'm like, What's the payoff here to me doing well in, like an AP chemistry class Exactly. Like, what am I getting out of that? And you know what smart kids make up do the math, they do the quote unquote math on that, and they'll find that there's really not a great payoff. What am I going to do? Like, I'm gonna work for Wall Street later, and you're going to be proud of me, because I'm rich. Like, that's really not the dream for me. That's not it. No,

Elle 20:38
right. Right. And that's, that is the thing. I think that we're hit like, you know, we're given we're told what our dreams are. We're not allowed to come up with them on your own. When we're really young. I think in some situations, I think. I mean, I hope that parents now but I sure as hell try and be better, you know, in terms of that, and sort of not foisting these expectations on my kid.

Cat 20:58
Like, you gotta heal your generational wounds. Yeah,

Elle 21:01
yeah, exactly. But I do think so that quote, must have resonated with Yeah.

Cat 21:08
I mean, and I follow, like, all those kinds of like, you know, inner child psychologist type accounts, because I'm just that kind of person. Totally, like, definitely bringing your podcast down, right. And like, childhood trauma together. I've seen that I wrote,

Elle 21:29
that's totally fine. Because then we are going to be talking about this is something that I've talked about before on the podcast, and I certainly, you know, I taught I taught a class and writing steamy scenes the other weekend, and, you know, it's something I talked about, that sex is a way to heal trauma. Like that's, that's, you know, you heal trauma through the act of sex. And so, you know, how do you approach that and writing and so so, I mean, I think that all of this, this whole conversation and the blowjob scene and everything, like it all converges, right? Sure. It does. You know, it totally does. So even though it seems completely out there, and now, we're at work. Now. We're like, we're no longer writing podcast,

Cat 22:16
kind of like my go to and I do feel like everyone I talked to I end up like, just just disclosing like, every secret about myself, which I don't know what that says about me. But I'm just like, ready to spill? You know what I mean? That's just me. It's all that Yeah. All the time.

Elle 22:33
So then, you know, there must be a reason behind what drew you to romance because you're writing romance historical. Like you're not, you're going I wrote the best political thriller. And then I just junked yes, you're writing romance? Yes.

Cat 22:47
So I love the creativity of romantic and interpersonal interactions. Like, there's so much subtext and symbolism to be mined within romance. And I find that exciting and titillating and I find it uplifting and as a person with a neuro neuro divergent brain, it is a dopamine rich genre. And that it that to me, that makes me a moth to a steady flame. That's why I'm drawn to romance, you know.

Elle 23:16
So were you always reading romance kind of

Cat 23:18
I and I know you, you ask the question, like, what was your first? What was your first What was your first so my book, my first romance novel? I was too too young to be reading it really. Although who's right like who's to decide for? But so my grandfather, who's also a writer, I, I didn't know him really at all. And I had basically no relationship with him. But something he did, did change the course of my life life, which is he sent a beat up cardboard box of used books to my house one day, and I found them it was just like at the front door, someone had delivered it and most of the books in there were trashed. But one book I found in there was called Whitney My Love by Judith McNaught, which is a classic, a classic historical Regency romance and it had a discreet cover so I think that's why I picked it up and opened it and it blew my fucking mind my 11 year old mind I wouldn't My love is also like a terrible romance for the record like it is

Elle 24:24
all the old ones are like you'd like with all sorts of like dub con and repeat it and yeah, it's like yeah, totally

Cat 24:31
full rape scene in that book. The hero is just like a villain like beyond villain but you're supposed to like it's exactly the guy you should not fuck in real life. And I just like loved it. I love it I just didn't know I was like every part about this is interesting. Like every single part is given me the dopamine hit that I need. There's no like boring interlude like it is all it bro. Dance, in my opinion is the gimme, gimme, gimme. And I love that about romance. So that was my first one. And then after that I didn't read romance for like, I picked up a book here and there I like didn't have access to them, really. And then as I became an adult, you know, I was an English major in college, and I thought I was like, too cool. I was gonna read like, electric Kool Aid acid test instead, or whatever like, thing I thought men were into. That was a time. And then just like, maybe five years ago, I started. I was like, remember that book I read, like when I was 11. And how that really impacted me. I'm going to look for that book. And I did not find that book. But I did find because I looked in like a library app. But I did find Lisa Kleypas. I found Sarah Maclean. I found faded mates, the podcast and all of that really, really changed my life again. And that's when so like, that's when I read a ton of romance just like 200 books in like a very short period of time. So

Elle 26:04
I it's like candy, like, right, like, you just it just slides down. And you're just like, you just read and read and read and read and read, which is the great thing about romance is you always get like, you're right, there is a dopamine hit there is this sort of there's a really wonderful sort of satisfaction finish a romance that you're like, Yes,

Cat 26:22
right. That was great. And you also don't have to finish them. Like,

Elle 26:26
that's the other thing. You don't mean like, Yeah,

Cat 26:29
I'm not like I'm a chaotic, evil kind of person, I guess. Like, I don't finish every book I read. So you don't have to do with romance, and it's gonna be okay. If you don't have

Elle 26:38
about 16 books going, none of them will be finished. I mean, it's like, I'm the worst reader sometimes. You know, I

Cat 26:44
really don't, I will say like, the podcast that I host like, has made me a better reader. Because I like when we have guests on, I'll read their book, and or books, some of them at least, and then I have to read beginning to end and take note, you know what I mean? It becomes more academic. And that has been interesting, too. And I've kind of taught myself to be a little more patient.

Elle 27:04
That way. So wait, how long does it I'm curious. Okay, first of all, um, a cat hosts tall, dark and dark and fictional pod stressed, which is really smart. And I know you say it, but I thought it was really smart. And I was like, Oh, this podcast is really great. Why don't you want to come? Okay. So but I'm kind of, I'm really actually fat because like full disclosure,

Cat 27:37
I don't have I can't read the books before I talk to the writers like I just know. I mean, you shouldn't write really impressed that you do a nightmare, though. Even like, and I want to read the books, obviously, as I'm sure you want the books, right. But it's like everybody's

Elle 27:53
book lined up on my Kindle to read like, after I talked to them. I'm like, Okay, go. Click that. buy that. But it's just it's a

Cat 28:00
lot. I mean, I just love the rush of a deadline, I think so I will. I will read a whole book The day the guest is coming on, I will just do whatever it takes. And you know, I don't know, I just like to know that about the guests before they come on. I think we also record fewer episodes than you do. So we probably have more time to do it. Okay, that's something Yeah, we're not as prolific and you know, we haven't been around for as long but yeah, it's definitely been, it's a challenge to

Elle 28:29
Why did you start the podcast? Because this the podcast came before your book? Like you've been doing this for a while, you

Cat 28:36
know, so I had already gotten a deal on my book, when I started the podcast. Yeah, so I got a deal on my book pretty quick. So I, um, which never happens, by the way. Just anyone listening. I'm kind of curious,

Elle 28:50
what was your process? Because you're not doing this independently. You have a publisher, who's publishing you.

Cat 28:55
So I published with Karina, which is right in print. Yeah, I believe that's how they describe it. Yeah, I just, I didn't know what I was doing. I had never, like submitted anything before. And I just happen to get a deal pretty fast. I think like, That's not typical. And I don't know what else to say. I'm really not like a good on that stuff.

Elle 29:20
I feel like though, it's like a little bit more typical, because I do know that there have been a couple of authors that I've talked to and now I can't remember who had been like, well, actually, it was really quick

Cat 29:27
process. Well, that's good to know. Because like, most people, I hear their stories and they're like, Well, I started this book in 2018. And then like, it's just coming out today, like 2022 and I'm like damn writing is slow. Like,

Elle 29:41
I think it also depends who you're potluck. Right? And even Harlequin like they're pretty fast, but I know like I've been going you know, I was going to cons you know, Comic Con specifically for a while because of the urban fantasy and I would talk to other urban fantasy authors who are Trad and it was like, like she usually five years from when they submitted their manuscript to their editor or like they already they had the DAR Wait, yeah, they were just waiting. Because between the editorial, the editing process would take X amount of time. And then the everything would get shipped to China to be printed. And then the books would have to come over on the boat from China to be destroyed. Like, it was a really frickin long ass process. And I wonder and yeah, yeah,

Cat 30:26
I do wonder. So I, I, when was that was that recently?

Elle 30:32
Oh, my God, I haven't like, wow, this was probably I think the last one I went to was, like, even way before the pandemic, maybe 2015. So it was really a while ago, I feel like a lot has changed in a very short amount of time. It's kind

Cat 30:47
of what I'm wondering, because I think like, obviously, self published authors independently published authors can really get stuff out quickly in a way that national publishers have historically not done. And I think maybe his traditional publishers are feeling that. And maybe they're tightening their timelines a little bit. I don't really know honestly, I'm really not very smart about this stuff.

Elle 31:07
And I also think urban fantasy is very differently. I think in romance imprints like you, they have to respond to market quicker, right? Right. So they have to, you know, Harlequin is going to move way faster than like Macmillan and I don't even or whatever, I can't even remember. Yeah, for urban fantasy, but they're going to be like, move way faster than urban fantasy simply because the market demands

Cat 31:29
this is this is very true. And that's the thing about romance is the market demands it like we the market loves romance, like we uphold the publishing industry, like romance sells, and which I think is cool. I'm like, very into it.

Elle 31:48
So I'm curious, what did they respond to? Because I kind of love I just want to, like, throw out here like, this is like your like trope, Alicia. So many tropes going on and

Cat 32:00
yeah, like, what did the publisher respond to about the book? Like, what were they? So what I got, you know, the messaging I got from them was that they liked my main character, and they found her compelling, which is funny, because I had also gotten feedback that she was not likable enough. Right. Exactly.

Elle 32:19
Exactly. Question about that. Okay. Yeah.

Cat 32:23
I mean, talk about only like an eye, I knew it. When I wrote my character. I was like, you know, this could potentially be polarizing, like writing in a character, who is kind of mean, sometimes, and, you know, has a lot of like protective walls and coping mechanisms. But I think she's very likable. I do, of course, I think she is. And I think she's also a very, very vulnerable character. And I think like, the thing about unlikable characters, is they, those characters want to keep their dignity, I think, and they keep finding themselves in a world that doesn't respect their dignity. And that's what can make them unlikable. And I think we can all relate to that because the world does not care about us. So we're all just trying to hold on to like a sliver, a sliver of our humanity all the time. And I see it feels like that needs to be represented. I actually don't even know that I think there is such a thing as a likable or unlikable character. Like I don't really even know that that is, like how you would even define that.

Elle 33:32
Well, yeah, I mean, I think that we all have likable and unlikable qualities, and something that's really likable in me, is probably completely abhorrent to somebody. Right? Like, like something that my husband likes about me, right, which is probably the fact that I'm so not, could be like, could be completely abhorrent to somebody else. And that person is gonna be like, Oh, my God, ya know. And, and so I think that, you know, that's also something else that we have to factor in. And also humans are complicated. Yeah.

Cat 34:01
And like, how do you just define somebody by like, one thing, but I mean, obviously, these are characters and books we're talking about, but also, I don't know, it's just to me, I was, it's like, I also kind of struggle with the idea of like, a beta male or an alpha male, and like, what makes one who is who and I just, I don't find those, although I will use those definitions. Like I'll use them all the time. I don't really find them that helpful. I just don't,

Elle 34:29
I don't even know really like what they have. Because I swear I write beta males and then reviewers will be like, Oh my God, that character was so alpha. And I'm like, Why do you say, like, what's

Cat 34:41
the reason? I don't know.

Elle 34:43
I don't know. That's a really good question. I I'm probably like, I'm gonna have to, like find a reader that said that that like I have like some interest. Yeah. And I'd be like, Hey, so what do you think? Because to me, and maybe this is just my own, like, again, this is my own whatever calling it like any sort of alpha male But I have read is kind of a deck. And I have a really hard time writing men that are

Cat 35:06
I do you want to hear my theory on this? Yes, I do. I think that alpha males are fragile masculinity and that beta males are men secure in their masculinity. And that something in our culture makes us want to have a man who is fragile with his masculinity. Fucked up,

Elle 35:29
Boom. Mic drop. I think you might be right. And it's going to actually this could actually change the trajectory of my net. Oh,

Cat 35:41
we want to know everything about that.

Elle 35:43
But no, I think that that's actually really a really sort of great point. But I also think that it kind of I don't know, sometimes I feel like when I do read, like super Alpha main characters, they feel really two dimensional to me. And I think maybe that's the piece that might be missing is that you're right, they are probably fragile in their masculinity. And that's why they're sort of like this hyper masculine dude. And so in that case, that you there's got to be a little bit more layering in there a little bit more complexity than I think that we're

Cat 36:17
getting right. And maybe, I mean, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's many writers out there doing the job admirable, admirable, it's really the admirably There we go. It was funny, because also one of the things my editor said, which just surprised me, she was like, you wrote a perfect beta male. And I was like I did, I wrote a beta male, I was like, I had no idea, like what I had created. And then I was like, Okay, I guess I can see that. Because, you know, my female character is like, a bitch. So you gotta foil that against something. That is not that's like a little bit lighter. But I also just saw him as someone who was like, extremely confident in who he was. So he had nothing to prove. Like, he wasn't out there trying to be like, you know, I mean, he, we do get a lot of like, pick her up and throw over his shoulder moments, we do get those but you know, not I don't know, just not in the typical Alpha way, obviously.

Elle 37:15
I don't think I've ever written one of those. And I think

Cat 37:18
you got to write what, you gotta do it. Yeah,

Elle 37:21
I've never actually done that. And I'm like, oh, like now that you just sort of put it out there. I'm like, I've never I hope you do.

Cat 37:28
I hope you do it. Now. The world needs your version of that particular that is almost a trope.

Elle 37:35
I know. I want to twist it anyway. For sure. But I want to jump back for a second and find out like, why you decided to do a podcast?

Cat 37:46
Um, you know, I think the reason why is because I hyper fixate on things. And that can be really annoying to people who do not enjoy or share my particular niche interests. And so I was like, I got to talk more about romance, I got to talk more about writing. And I'm a pretty, like, I'm just like a talkative person in general. So I was like, I'm just gonna go for it and start a podcast, why the fuck not. And also, I wanted to make friends with other writers and kind of like, open up the writing community to me, which I did not feel like I was a part of. Now I feel more like I am, but it is kind of a scary endeavor.

Elle 38:25
It is. And I found that a lot of authors, I don't know how they know what the

Cat 38:30
fuck is. I'm, like, ever. It's always like, you're walking into like, a lunch table where everyone's sitting in the end, like, already knows each other, and you're just like a new,

Elle 38:38
like, what is like the new kid and you're like, Hey,

Cat 38:42
I know. And I feel like I always play this role in life. And so it's like, just, you know, history repeats itself. And so, yeah, that is how it feels.

Elle 38:52
I completely, I don't know if they like find each other if there's like, some sort of Facebook group that I don't belong to, or like, and I try and join all these Facebook groups, because I know we're supposed to be in Facebook groups and interacting and all that. And I joined them and then I sit there and don't say, Yeah, because I

Cat 39:06
don't know what. Well, they're a little bit overwhelming. It's a lie are Yeah, it is a lie.

Elle 39:12
It is a lie. No, no.

Cat 39:14
Are you an extrovert? Or like, how do you identify?

Elle 39:17
You know, it's I don't know, actually what I am anymore. I feel like if you'd asked me when I was like, 20, I'd be like, Oh my god, total extrovert. And then and then I feel like with age, I've become way more introvert. If that makes sense, like and so and so. It's weird, because like, I love going out. And especially with my friends and like, and I'm like, I don't see you enough. And it's always so much fun. But then, but But then I'm like, oh, but if I could just I just want to stay home. Yeah, you know, I like my dog. Like my family. I like my couch. I like my wine. I like what you know, like, like it's just cozy in here and I don't want to leave

Cat 39:54
Yeah, that's my shirt right there now, but I'm the same I used to be like heavily identifies next To revert, and I don't know, I've just changed. I just want to be inside the same thing with my dogs on the couch. I don't know. I don't know if that just happens or what, but but other I feel like we're the same

Elle 40:11
person. I mean,

Cat 40:13
I'll just leave you finish the

Elle 40:17
our work here is done. You're talking to the same person? Yeah. Because yeah, it's weird. And I don't know how that happened. It just, it just seemed like one day, it was just like, oh, no, actually, I like this better.

Cat 40:29
I felt like that, too. I don't know what it is. And I don't know, like, I don't know, I feel like some of it was pandemic related for me, because I used to be like someone who always wanted to go out and like, drink and have people over for dinner parties and all that. And I still do like some of those things. But when I really got the chance to just sit with myself, and, and get to know other people who are also writing, then I was like, Oh, I'm gonna choose option B now all the time. Yeah, I did the same thing. I don't know.

Elle 41:01
Yeah. And, you know, part of the reason why I started my podcast Well, I mean, part of it was because I was struggling with writing the naughty bits. And I was like, okay, so I want to hear about like, I want to talk to other writers, and hear what they're doing and talk about what they're doing, and, and get tips and tricks. And is it hard for them? Is it easy? Am I alone? Am I weird? And then and then I just realized, Oh, my God, and I'm talking to all these people that I wouldn't be able to talk to, and I actually have writer friends now. Yes,

Cat 41:32
good. You made it. You made good writer friends.

Elle 41:34
Oh, my God, like we traveled to see each other. And yeah, you know, I went to I went to LA and I saw lb Alexander who I adore, and we hung out. And then Isabel, Joe Lee came up to a conference in New England from a she's she's down south, I think, like North Carolina, South Carolina area like you. And she can't and I saw she was going to be at a conference, like an hour away from me. And I was really well figured out. I'm gonna go and so like, we went to that conference together. So it's been like, really great. Yeah. Because I'm finding like, I'm making friends. Yeah. Isn't that strange? And, you know, I mean, and you know, you gotta say, like, once you become a certain age, it's so hard.

Cat 42:15
You have to be you have to be like, maniacal about it. If you want to make friends. And I act like I have no shame about I'm like, anyone can send me a message. And I will probably end up being their friend. Like, it's very easy to become my friend.

Elle 42:31
Oh, excellent. Okay, so we do zoom happy hours. And we did. So come on along.

Cat 42:42
Weirdo though, so you have to be prepared for that. That's okay. We're all we should be at least I you know, we should be.

Elle 42:50
I mean, half the time. I'm like half dressed and on showered. So that's totally,

Cat 42:54
naturally naturally.

Elle 42:57
So I'm curious. Since we are, you know, we do need to talk about scenes that I'm going to be reading from yours. Was this. Okay, first, there seems to be a high heat level going on. And so I'm very curious how many steamy scenes Do you have a lot realized,

Cat 43:15
I don't know how many. Oh, my God, I don't ever count. And I should know. There's a lot I don't I don't hold back. I just like to deliver the goods. Right. So.

Elle 43:26
Okay, and so for you, have you, I'm assuming then in your abandoned novels you had been writing steaming?

Cat 43:34
Um, so I really only not really, I only really had once I know, these are bad answers. This makes me sound like I have no idea what I'm doing and maybe I don't

Elle 43:45
know we none of us know what we're doing. It's totally fine. Nobody knows what they're doing it anybody who says that they do is a fucking thank

Cat 43:52
you for that reassurance. Yeah, I really had not written anything like that before. But I had just come off of like, like I said, reading like 200 romance novels, and just kind of reflecting on the different ways that writers would write sex scenes and you know, like the varying degrees of heat levels and just taking from that whatever not taking but like, you know, taking my own kind of interpretation on how I wanted to present sex scenes on the page

Elle 44:26
and you were like Full Tilt

Cat 44:31
were like Full Tilt you're like okay, my whole philosophy is like if you don't make yourself cringe, then you're not doing it right. Like you got to go in go in hard go in true and, and I like to, like, offer up that vulnerability to a reader also. I kind of want people to almost like have to look away for a second. Because you feel like oh my god, we are in it. Like we're in this moment with these people. Yeah, so that's That's probably my philosophy on smart. So

Elle 45:03
was it easy for you to integrate the first one? Or were you like, oh my god,

Cat 45:06
like cringing so hard, so incredibly embarrassed, but I am, at some point in my life, I just became the kind of person who was like, fuck it and just do the thing, like, life's too short, you're gonna die. You might as well do it.

Elle 45:21
So, okay, so then when you're writing, is it something that just is like, it's easy to write that scene as it is to write the scene that came? You know, before it in the restaurant, the office building between the best friends, whatever it is, or is it one of those scenes where you're like, Okay, I know that this is going to be a rough writing day from

Cat 45:41
no scenes are easy for me to write. So it's all equally hard. And, but sex scenes are not like harder for me. I don't know, I, I, you know, I think I just kind of know the situation I want the characters to be in. And as long as I know how the stakes are going to change and how they're going to come out on the other side. The the rest of the rest is just elbowing my way through, and an instinct, you know, and, and you'd be surprised what your brain will come up with it if you give it a little push if you give it a chance.

Elle 46:12
Right? Um, how many? I'm curious, do you write every day?

Cat 46:18
God, how dare you ask me this? I don't. I don't, but I did for NaNoWriMo. I did win. NaNoWriMo Do you write every day? I write five days a week. That's pretty good. That's pretty damn good.

Elle 46:34
I don't write a lot of words. Like I'm not you know, how you. You hear those authors? And they're like, Well, I write 15,000 words a day. And I'm like, Are you fucking kidding? You know I do about it. I have a goal of 1000 every day, which I've been knock would hit until like, this week. It's been a little drag. Yeah. But you know, but that's really like forcing myself to but you know, I have a day job, right? You know, I write for my day job, too. So So I have a lot of writing going on throughout my day. But I do so I do try and do like, you know, 5000 words a week. That's, that's always

Cat 47:13
I feel like that's very good. I. So I've taken like, a lot of personality tests for various jobs over the years. And I don't know if you've taken this one ever. But there is like this thing about, are you a paced worker or a non pace worker? I think I'm describing that right? Have you ever heard of this? And I've never heard of oh, okay, part of it is like, do you? Are you a steady, consistent worker? Or are you somebody who can change up your pace based on when things are due. So like, maybe like I said, the rush of the deadline, just kind of like gives me energy. If I have like a reason to write a lot, I will and I can and I can be like incredibly prolific, but that will also kind of empty me out. And then I'll need to like refill again after a while. So I don't write every day. But like, so I might take like chunks of time off. I always feel terrible, though. When I take those time when I take that time off.

Elle 48:05
Yeah, and I know, I need to take a chunk of time. Like I feel like it's like I've, I feel a little bit like I'm on a grind, right? Because I finished one book. And I automatically start with the next and they never slow down to sort of like, take a couple of weeks to maybe not do this thing every day. Because I'm always feeling with constant pressure to like, get the next book out. Because I know, you know, romance authors released quickly. I know. And I just don't write that fast. I don't write fast enough,

Cat 48:33
because this is the time in the podcast where we talked about capitalism and the machine of production. That's where we are.

Elle 48:48
So Stalinism is,

Cat 48:50
I mean, honestly, but what you're saying is like what I think I hear so many other Romance Writers talk about in a big kind of like a conversation that's happening in the ether of publishing in general. It's just like, how do we continue this grind? And how do we continue to pump out books like a Katy Robert you know, like, in some people can just do that forever and ever? I don't know. But we're all different.

Elle 49:16
Yeah, I mean, for me, that's not sustainable. Yeah. You know, I mean, I would like to ditch the day job and be able to write more words per day but to be honest with you, I don't think that I would get I don't know that I would get enough words per day to be that writer that releases a book every every month because I think that's insane.

Cat 49:34
I mean, I applaud that writer that could not be me.

Elle 49:38
i But I can't do that. at that pace is ridiculous. Like no you

Cat 49:42
interviewed writers who do that? Um,

Elle 49:46
I don't know that I've had anybody on that's necessarily rapid release that or at least that we've talked about it and not in that way. I think a lot of them are using ghostwriters

Cat 49:56
dirty secrets.

Elle 49:58
Or you know, I do know that some authors are doing like very, very, very, very, very short novels so like, you know, like five or 10. Like seriously, like 10,000 words like there's a readership out there for those short, digestible take takes a week to read. And so they're releasing on like, just about a weekly schedule. Yeah, but even then I'm like, that's a lot. Like, that's just a lot. Yeah,

Cat 50:25
I guess if I had a readership that demanded that I would certainly do it. That would be exciting for a while. And but I don't think I could keep it up forever, I would ultimately disappoint people, because that's kind of my MO. Ultimately, I'm just going to crash and burn, you know, so would it be the one?

Elle 50:41
Yeah, I mean, I just think that that is just ripe for burnout. You know, and also, I don't know that I struggled to tell this story in. Like, I feel like I need more. It's harder to write short for me. Like sometimes it's just harder to write short than it is to write long. So I just don't think that that word count gives me enough time to develop my characters fully. And I'm not saying they develop their like, they develop their characters fully. But for me, like I'm constant, and again, this is my plot issue, right? I'm constantly like introducing new plot lines into my books. And my editor is always like, well, you don't need 16 plot lines. Yeah.

Cat 51:27
You're like, I don't know. I felt I feel like I might remind me that

Elle 51:32
was just like a by the way, you forgot about this plotline. They just left it hanging. And I'm like, Oh, yeah.

Cat 51:39
You're like, well, that's just life. I mean, yeah. 10,000 words presents a different challenge. That's for sure. I you know, I would like to practice that also. Not in a publishing sense, but I do think it's good. Good practice to learn how to write short stories, which I I really don't do I might give that might give that a creative go. But not a publishing go.

Elle 52:02
Interesting. Interesting. Oh, my gosh, it's like a challenge. Yeah, I

Cat 52:07
need something. I gotta keep it. I gotta keep things exciting over here.

Elle 52:11
So are you working on another book? Oh, boy. What did you get like one

Cat 52:17
of those three books? Or is it No, no, because I didn't even know how to pitch that I only pitched it as a single book. But then I did write in. So there, there will be another book. As it was sealed. It is Lucille. How did you know

Elle 52:33
that? Because I because you have a forever best friend in the book. And so the best best friend these are happening? Of course.

Cat 52:39
Yes, of course. Of course. Yeah. So it's her. I haven't written that book yet. But I do have two other finished manuscripts that I just randomly wrote, like, kind of fast. And like, I really should have had a plan for them. I should have done something. But I didn't, but I will. So I don't think this is the last of me here. But we'll see. I gotta figure out my next steps. Again, I'm very bad at this.

Elle 53:03
Are they rom coms as well, like, I'm just kind of curious. So

Cat 53:07
one is like a mystery rom com and I'm like a little bit of an edgier writer. It's a high concept, miss your mystery rom com. It doesn't. Yeah, it's like a forced proximity style kind of is very stylized. And I do love it so much. And I'm currently rewriting it and then the other one is a male point of view only. And it is I would say, it might actually end up being accidentally women's fiction, because I just cannot keep my main characters like monogamous sometimes. Like, and, you know, like, how they can't like sleep with other people.

Elle 53:47
You can't do that romance you'll get

Cat 53:49
you'll get sued literally. Yeah. So I I have another book. I do think it's worth releasing. I might rewrite it so that it follows conventions, but I just had to write it the way I wanted to. Okay, yeah, and it was just a good to kind of a rom com but definitely more like a little bit dark can be dark. Anyone who says anything differently doesn't know what they're talking about.

Elle 54:14
Ya know, there can there can be very dark bodies for sure. For sure. Cool. So I want to read your steam. No. Um, so this is from partner track. Can you set this up for it? Well, first of all, let me ask you, why did you send me this one? What was it about why you want Why did you want to send literally

Cat 54:28
sent you the shortest one. And that's why? I'll tell you, I'll give you a better explanation. So this was like a forced proximity Snowden moment between the two main characters and it's a turning point in the story where the heroine for the first time is kind of expressing, like emotional love through a physical act. So she's kind of like giving in a way she's never given before so we'll just say that's the reason why. Now I

Elle 54:54
have a question. Have they already had sex before this? Yes, they had okay, I thought so. But I just wanted to clarify that I just really loved I'm just gonna, like just want to read the opening sentence that I have. This is not a solely opening sentence. I was like, well, that's bold.

Cat 55:10
Oh no, I just now remembered what it was so yeah, great.

Elle 55:15
It was okay, everybody, everybody like sit down and like if there's a little one in the room, you might want to plug the I mean, you probably should have plugged in before, but, but definitely do it now. So Carter's deck was shoved so far down Purdys throat it may well have been a throat swab, and yet she dove for more straining with alacrity to reach the root. I was like, we just went there. I love it.

Cat 55:41
Thank you. That actually was a really great full buddy cringe right now. Oh,

Elle 55:50
my God. That's such a wonderful sentence. You have no idea. I think I read it like 16 times because I was like that. So as you can, as you can see, folks, this is going to be a blow job. Yes. So I am just going to jump down a little bit and start 10 minutes earlier, they had been happily debating their breakfast options when the urge to suck. Carter's Carter's COC overwhelmed her. He was just standing there running his hand over his hair and that absent way of his telling a story about how his mother used to make fried peanut butter and jelly sandwiches when it occurred to her that if she wanted to reach out and squeeze it when it occurred to her that if she wanted to reach out and squeeze his biceps, then run her hands up and down the ink decorating his arm. She could in fact he wanted her to he'd made that clear. And there was no one here to stop her from doing it. No work colleagues, no bosses, no roommates, he was here for her to touch if she wanted. An unfamiliar primal urge to stake out a claim on him crept over her until the only thing she could think about was pulling the heft out of his pants and running her tongue up and down the shaft until it glisten like a lollipop. Her mouth watered. She worried her lower lip between the cage of her teeth and tongue until they stopped mid sentence the corners of his mouth twitched up. What What's got you so distracted, his smile faltered a bit when with lead for legs. She stepped close to him so that they were mere inches apart. Her hips tilted into his her hand tingle decision she let it slide up his naked chest. Then she pulled it the nape of his neck bringing his mouth to her as in a slow kiss her tongue sliding over his in a wet flick. When she broke away, he leaned in towards her to recapture her mouth, but she craned her head out of reach. They froze in that position, a smile played on his lips. What was that for? I the heat and her cheeks rose and then our eyebrows ended together as if she were coming to terms with the idea. I want to give you a blow job. I love that I love the whole setup to to this whole thing. Yeah,

Cat 58:01
that was a great reading. You do a great read. Oh, thank you.

Elle 58:05
I did try and I know I just I really loved this whole like this whole kind of setup there of her watching him and making you know talking about breakfast and sort of standing in the kitchen. I'm assuming they're in the kitchen. Yeah. And, and just watching him and looking and having this moment of clarity of I think I want to suck is dead.

Cat 58:31
I mean, Haven't we all been there

Elle 58:39
and then you know and then I then then I sort of like double highlighted that the forward the forwards with lead for legs for smell faltered a bit one with lead for legs. And I think that that was actually those four those four words. Were so telling, because in all of this that she's going through in her head, like Oh, I think I want to but at the same time there is clearly some sort of she's having some sort of sort of pause here she slept you know, because it feels like a take no prisoners moment right like that sort of marching forward. I'm going to take your dick out and stuck up when you go to with lead for legs. That's telling me there's still something that's holding her back that she's not quite sure even though she's gonna go for

Cat 59:23
it that's so smart because she is definitely a character that holds back even when she's giving forth she's holding back so and I think like with any sex scene until the characters are fully in their happily ever after. You have to have that.

Elle 59:38
Oh, interesting. Nobody's ever going to let go come right. Like it has to

Cat 59:41
be a little forbidden. A little wrong a little I shouldn't do this. Because you know, you haven't resolved whatever the big problem is yet.

Elle 59:50
Right? Right. Yeah, I just thought that that was so great just to see those and it was just those four words that took me half right like it was that was it. And that was all you needed. And I was like, Whoa,

Cat 1:00:00
What a close reading you're doing

Elle 1:00:04
that's why I only asked for the Gonna jump down a little bit we're getting into the actual stuff. Okay, so imagine if I made you read it.

Cat 1:00:15
I would never agree to do. I know.

Elle 1:00:19
I've had to read my own work twice and I wanted to

Cat 1:00:21
oh boy, at least you're good. It's really

Elle 1:00:25
I feel like okay. At first one pretty brought the crown to her lips dobbing it with her tongue. Carta was hesitant tangling his hand in her hair but touching her as if she was delicate as a class ornament. But pretty didn't want gentle and she certainly wasn't delicate after lipid licking up and down the shaft wetting it until it was slippery all over she'd begun to stroke him aggressively twisting both hands at the root of his erection while her mouth closed around him, her head working up and down the head in the shaft, the head and shaft sorry. Within minutes Carter's hips were thrusting brutally into her mouth, her throat humming. Her jaw saw sore but still trying to take down more eventually using his hands her hands as leverage against his body to take in more of his length. God who knew you could Sokak like that he gritted through clenched teeth. That possessive feeling overwhelmed her again. Mine. Her hand came to cup his balls rolling them in her palm, and his head dropped back a drop and his head dropped back a hiss of air escaping him. Not gonna last very long. He groaned with a thrust. Oh fuck are you touching yourself? Aha. She nodded her mouthful as she worked one hand beneath the elastic of silky modal boys boys shorts. That's so hot. Yes, yes, he was panting now thrust becoming more erratic by the second. Her eyes closed and her mon vibrated around his deck as his fingers reached down to cup one of her breasts, letting his thumb flick the sensitized nipple. Her cheeks hollow to she bobbed up and down everything wet and hot and slippery. You want it? You want to swallow it down. Mm hmm. She hummed her eyes. Eyes bite as she nodded a bit him. Her fingers worked in a furious circle against her own clip, she was on the edge. And she did want to swallow him up, pull. Take every last drop. Okay, I want to talk about dirty talk first. Yeah. Because I can't write up conversations between my two care like two of my characters while they're in the middle of some sort of, like, I can't do it so hard. And how do you like, this is the thing to me? Where I'm like, how do you? Like, I'm just like, I can't do that. I have a hard time you

Cat 1:02:43
can do it. You just have to be willing to be embarrassed. More.

Elle 1:02:49
I know, do you sometimes sometimes feel like when I'm writing the shit, it's like my mother's

Cat 1:02:53
permission. Yeah, that is not an invitation. I would.

Elle 1:02:57
It is not fun. It is not fun when you have that. Like, oh my god. Yeah.

Cat 1:03:02
I feel like when I read a sex scene, I need like a lot of dirty talk for some reason. Like, I think that like, I don't know why I don't know if I'm like, I don't know what that is. For some reason. I always have a lot of it in my books. And it is really hard to write. Because it's embarrassing.

Elle 1:03:24
Because it's very, it's Well, first of all, it is a very staccato thing I think we've just thinking about, like, I don't know, like rhythms and that you know, right. And so when you're totally if when you're in the act, you're not having really expressive converse, right. You know, these are going to be one two words very, very quick.

Cat 1:03:51
Yeah, you got to pare it down to what you really want to say. And you can't just keep being like, oh, fuck, oh, fuck, like you really got a you have to get a little bit. Like, creative with it. I guess. It's hard.

Elle 1:04:05
Yeah. And I'd love that you want it? You want to swallow it down? Because I was like, Oh my God. Yeah, you can say

Cat 1:04:13
Ah, sometimes he says like, that was one of my tropes is that he's very dirty talking. And oh, but yeah. This is like nothing compared to like, other things he says and, and he really is a fully kind, nice character. And then on the other side of him, he is filthy. Or at least I wanted him to be filthy, you know, because that's like, like titillating, you know, to

Elle 1:04:39
read, honestly, honestly, cannot wait to read this.

Cat 1:04:43
I'll send it to you.

Elle 1:04:45
Because this is like, I really loved this little section that you sent me like, I was like, oh, yeah, like this is beautiful, really beautiful writing and it's super fun. And it's like and I thought this was really ballsy. I thought that this was ballsy writing to be honest with you. That is Ah nice. And I really liked it. Okay, so I just want to read like just one last thing about sorry you're almost you're almost pretty held on for dear life is his hips jolted and then the hot jet of semen pumped out of him and down her throat See, I'm sorry, this is ballsy. It was frantic, messy and hot. she moaned as she swallowed, lurching on her knees as her own orgasm jerked and Twitch through her body like little electric pulses. So this I thought was also kind of curious about why you pick the scene that I was thinking about. I think every just about every scene that I've read on this podcast has been penetrative sex.

Cat 1:05:44
I had no idea. I mean, I've listened. I haven't listened all of them.

Elle 1:05:48
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I've had closed the door where there's no sex at all. But you know, but But I think, I think that this is the only scene where there has been, yeah, yeah. This is the first scene with non penetrative PSA. And I thought that that was really kind of curious that that you pick and because I think that there, maybe it's like an assumption, what we're going to talk about an intimate, intimate moment. So let's have penetration. But intimacy does not necessarily mean penetration. Yes,

Cat 1:06:18
this is actually a sticking point that I have in a sticking point I have with heterosexual romance, which is that like after you have penetrative sex, that now everything's different, and that's also just a literary thing. You know, were like, okay, and that was the turning point of your story. And this is a way to mark that. But I just feel like why do we emphasize penetrative sex so much when penetrative sex isn't even? The thing that gives most women orgasms? You know, why people with vaginas, whatever you want to, like, it doesn't, it isn't even. It's not even the most important thing. But we weirdly put it on a pedestal of intimacy and importance, and I don't really, I don't really agree with that at all. I

Elle 1:07:10
don't know that there could be anything more intimate between two people than oral sex. But like, also, you know what I mean? Like, like, there's something really vulnerable.

Cat 1:07:22
Oral sex can probably be like one of the grossest things right? Like just like body wise, it can be like gross, because all body things are gross at their core. But

Elle 1:07:31
yeah, and even but even beyond animal like it just seems it for me, it just seems like there's something more like way more intimate.

Cat 1:07:42
Yeah, I think it really depends on the people the situation you know, what is intimate to people and not everybody can engage in every kind of sex act and write certain things mean different things to certain people, so I guess Yeah, I didn't even think twice about sending you the blowjob scene. Just I mean,

Elle 1:08:04
I don't know it could mean absolutely nothing but in my head I was like, I think this is the first non penetrative sex scene that

Cat 1:08:10
oh my God give me a gold star. That's what I want you get

Elle 1:08:17
so this was awesome. This was such a great like such a great scene. There's there's a lot of good stuff. Um, so what So okay, so this books coming out April, this is going to be while the podcast it will be out when the podcast goes. And then you have a couple of other books. You're not sure what you're going to be doing with?

Cat 1:08:37
Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens. Yeah. All right.

Elle 1:08:40
So then where can readers find you on the internet? Where do you hang out the most? So that they can keep up with everything that

Cat 1:08:46
you're doing? So you can find me at my website at cat when And you can also find me on most social media platforms at cat when author that Ca te Wyn en and you can also find me at your wedding if you invite me. You have cheese plates, right but when

Elle 1:09:04
we get to specify, so I'm curious is there one like because God God, God knows I can't be on all the socials. Oh, it's like

Cat 1:09:11
a one platform you gravitate to mostly on Instagram. Is that yours too?

Elle 1:09:15
Yeah, that's mine of choice. Are you on Tik Tok?

Cat 1:09:17
No, I'm too old and I need to I need to.

Elle 1:09:20
I know I'm there. And I've posted a few videos that everyone's like, oh, like you're on Tik Tok. And I'm just I bet it's just not my I don't I'm not comfortable there.

Cat 1:09:29
I know. And I think it's just the LEAP we all have to make.

Elle 1:09:33
And you know, I'm like, Oh, I have to shower. Oh, I

Cat 1:09:36
have to put on me nah.

Elle 1:09:39
Man, like and I'm just like, and I'm like, oh, I need to clean my office. Oh,

Cat 1:09:43
it's a lot of pressure for five seconds video.

Elle 1:09:46
It's and everyone is so funny. Like there's so many people that are so funny. And I'm like I'm not going to be that funny. Yeah, yeah,

Cat 1:09:54
that's a tough that I do love tick tock I love what people create on there. I love with like, book talkers create It's truly amazing amazes me but I'm not there yet.

Elle 1:10:03
Not there. It's hard. It's hard but yeah, I'm mostly on it.

Cat 1:10:07
I'm also bad at Instagram so I don't know what I'm talking about. It's not like I'm good at that. Yeah, I

Elle 1:10:12
don't feel like I'm up but I don't know I kind of like the idea of posting a picture and then a little bit of next to it and people can respond to Yeah, in like, you know, I don't know it just feels a little bit more and maybe it's just because I forced myself to do it for you. Like I literally like last year last January. I was like, you are posting on Instagram five days a week. Good for you. And I did for you know, and I was good at it. But didn't work. Did it like help your it did help me? It really did help me just get comfortable with poses. So I kind of feel like that's probably it for tick tock, but honestly, it's like,

Cat 1:10:44
how much joy as long as you've claimed the real estate. I think you're okay. Yeah, that's what matters.

Elle 1:10:48
So I'm just sitting on it. Yeah. We'll get there. So cat this has been super fun to have you thank you so much for coming on. Yeah. Yeah, and please come I will anytime.

Cat 1:10:59

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